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David Nebenzahl
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 Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: Big trains question about coupling |
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Watched "Von Ryan's Express" last night on TV, and was surprised when it
showed an Italian trainman coupling up cars: you could see the cars
being pushed together, and when the buffers met, the guy ducked under
one of them, grabbed the coupling hook and connected it, then quickly
ducked back out.
Anyone know if this was realistic? Seems incredibly dangerous to this
North Americano; but maybe that's just because of too many years of
indoctrination to such things as FRA regs and working rules ...
--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.
- Paulo Freire |
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Roger T.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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| Quote: | Watched "Von Ryan's Express" last night on TV, and was surprised when it
showed an Italian trainman coupling up cars: you could see the cars being
pushed together, and when the buffers met, the guy ducked under one of
them, grabbed the coupling hook and connected it, then quickly ducked back
out.
Anyone know if this was realistic? Seems incredibly dangerous to this
North Americano; but maybe that's just because of too many years of
indoctrination to such things as FRA regs and working rules ...
|
Everyday occurrence on practically every railway that used screw couplers
and buffers. Probably frowned upon but men did it anyway.
--
Cheers
Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/ |
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Bernhard Agthe
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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Hi,
David Nebenzahl wrote:
| Quote: | Watched "Von Ryan's Express" last night on TV, and was surprised when it
showed an Italian trainman coupling up cars: you could see the cars
being pushed together, and when the buffers met, the guy ducked under
one of them, grabbed the coupling hook and connected it, then quickly
ducked back out.
Anyone know if this was realistic? Seems incredibly dangerous to this
North Americano; but maybe that's just because of too many years of
indoctrination to such things as FRA regs and working rules ...
|
Actually in the "Old World" there are no "Janney Couplers" - only the
buffer-and-hook-and-screw type (Russia has a central buffer coupler, but
that's incompatible to everything else).
So what you did see was actually the harmless variant - I did personally
observe the trainmen walking in there (between the buffers) just a few
seconds before the trains actually met. While this might be against
regulation, ducking under the buffers (especially when he comes from
atop a platform) is acrobatic...
An effort was made in the 60ies or 70ies to develop a "european center
coupler" which should have been compatible to Russia and feature air and
electric connections. They wanted the gold-emitting donkey, but it
should cost nothing... The result follows this line: "the hook-and-screw
couplers are working well, there are few accidents and everything else
costs too much"... That the manual couplers cost a lot in terms of
personnel isn't in the calculation... Don't try to understand this.
Along the same lines, like I mentioned earlier, Knuckle-Couplers are
exotic in European model railways... You can buy them via WWW, but you
won't be compatible to your friends. They would solve a series of
problems (semi-close coupling) but then, European modelers would blame
the manufracturers for being non-prototypical (which the available ones
aren't either) and for breaking compatibility (whatever) and not being
traditional... Again, don't try to understand this, its just because
it's always been done so...
Nothing against Europeans, the average person is just as nice as
Americans, Asians, Russians, anyone else.
Have a nice day... |
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Krypsis
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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Roger T. wrote:
| Quote: | Watched "Von Ryan's Express" last night on TV, and was surprised when it
showed an Italian trainman coupling up cars: you could see the cars being
pushed together, and when the buffers met, the guy ducked under one of
them, grabbed the coupling hook and connected it, then quickly ducked back
out.
Anyone know if this was realistic? Seems incredibly dangerous to this
North Americano; but maybe that's just because of too many years of
indoctrination to such things as FRA regs and working rules ...
Everyday occurrence on practically every railway that used screw couplers
and buffers. Probably frowned upon but men did it anyway.
--
Cheers
Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/
|
Used to see it happening all the time at our local station back in the
60's. Knew a shunter once who happened to have his head in the wrong
place when the buffers met. Didn't duck quite low enough I guess but it
was 3'6" "main line" narrow gauge when all was said and done. Much
facial remodeling was the result. He survived but his own mother
wouldn't have recognised him after the event. His accident caused a
major reshuffle, along with an altered attitude to training, in the TGR
back about 40 years ago.
Krypsis |
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Wolf Kirchmeir
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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David Nebenzahl wrote:
| Quote: | Watched "Von Ryan's Express" last night on TV, and was surprised when it
showed an Italian trainman coupling up cars: you could see the cars
being pushed together, and when the buffers met, the guy ducked under
one of them, grabbed the coupling hook and connected it, then quickly
ducked back out.
Anyone know if this was realistic? Seems incredibly dangerous to this
North Americano; but maybe that's just because of too many years of
indoctrination to such things as FRA regs and working rules ...
|
Standard method (see other posts.)
However, many passenger cars now use centre couplers, some even with
buffers. Most are multi-connection couplers, see photos of UK DMUs on
alt.binaries.pictures.rail for examples.
British rail installed fold-down knuckle couplers on Mark 1 or 2 cars
IIRC. These cars also had the screw couplers. Most Britsih DMUs have ths
HTH
--
Wolf Kirchmeir |
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Dan Merkel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:48fd78a0$0$28734$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
| Quote: | Watched "Von Ryan's Express" last night on TV, and was surprised when it
showed an Italian trainman coupling up cars: you could see the cars being
pushed together, and when the buffers met, the guy ducked under one of
them, grabbed the coupling hook and connected it, then quickly ducked back
out.
Anyone know if this was realistic? Seems incredibly dangerous to this
North Americano; but maybe that's just because of too many years of
indoctrination to such things as FRA regs and working rules ...
|
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Railway_coupler shows several different
looking Europena couplers and I don't think any of them look automatic. But
I must confess, I've never seen European trains in operation either.
dlm |
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Ian Jackson
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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In article <nzoLk.3931$x%.81@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
Dan Merkel <danmerkel@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
| Quote: | http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Railway_coupler shows several different
looking Europena couplers and I don't think any of them look automatic. But
I must confess, I've never seen European trains in operation either.
|
I can't speak for continental Europe but in Britain the majority of
passenger trains are multiple units, with automatic couplers to permit
several units to be run as one train.
Some longer-distance passenger trains are loco-hauled but these are
operated almost as if they were multiple units; they often have
semi-permanent couplings between vehicles and are not routinely
uncoupled or rearranged - only for maintenance or to deal with
problems (eg to swap out a failed loco). These trains are too long
to run in multiple-unit formations.
For example, the Class 365 trains which run between my home city of
Cambridge and London. These are 4-car units which are very frequently
coupled and uncoupled while in passenger service; many of the fast
trains from London are 8 cars which run non stop to Cambridge and then
divide, with the front 4 coaches carrying on to King's Lynn - and of
course in the other direction, a 4-car unit from King's Lynn will be
coupled up to another 4-car unit at Cambridge. This takes only a few
minutes and a minimum of staff.
Wikipedia has a pretty comprehensive set of basic information about
British trains at pages named like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_365
All European high speed trains (all trains >250kph anywhere?) have
automatic couplers although the coupler itself is obviously covered by
a panel when not in use for aerodynamic reasons. Certainly the French
operate many services with two TGV sets coupled together although I
don't know if they routinely uncouple/recouple at the platform, rather
than in a siding or a depot, or even do it with passengers on board.
--
Ian Jackson personal email: <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657 |
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Bernhard Agthe
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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Hi,
Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
| Quote: | However, many passenger cars now use centre couplers, some even with
buffers. Most are multi-connection couplers, see photos of UK DMUs on
alt.binaries.pictures.rail for examples.
|
Wait a second, automatic center couplers are seen more often, but mostly
in multiple-unit-trains (to ease coupling) and on train end wagons (such
as the remote cab in two-way-trains. Again, they are meant to speed up
coupling passenger trains. At least in continental Europe, passenger
cars still use the screw-type couplers between each other.
On the other hand you'll find permanently coupled multiple units with
central couplers at the unit ends more and more often (e.g. with Jacobs
bogies). They don't use any couplers internally ;-)
This may actually lead to considerable confusion because the center
couplers (Scharfenberg type) are available in different types with
different positioning of electrical and air connections.
In general the whole situation is quite difficult in Europe, there are
national regulations (the brake pressure gauge needs a red needle in
Germany and a yellow needle in Italy, e.g.), european regulations and
many different established solutions. While there are different
regulations in the american network also, at least the interfaces
(couplers) are standard. And I do think, that the Janney couplers are a
good solution (while not the best possible). The europeans missed each
and every chance in history to adapt something similar... Like I said,
nice people individually ;-)
Have fun! |
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Peter W.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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On Oct 22, 2:01 pm, David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
| Quote: |
Now to bring up a related issue: I hate to say this, but those Yurpeen
cars and locos, with their prominent buffers, just look plain funny to
me. The buffers sticking out always give them, in my mind, a sort of
Thomas the Tank Engine look.
Funny that you say that - after all Thomas the Tank Engine *IS* |
modeled after British prototypes (which are equipped with buffers).
To Europeans Thomas looks quite correctly modeled (not just some silly
cartoonish toy with buffers).
I can also relate to what you feel but in reverse. I grew up in
Poland (in the 70s) and I had mini TT gauge layout (using buffered
European prototype of course). When I arrived in the USA and started
researching the local railroads and then modeling US railroads in N
scale they all looked really funny without buffers. To me they didn't
look like real trains as they were not equipped with buffers! US
boxcars looked more like trucks on track than real railroad cars. At
this point I got used to that look but when I look at some of my
European prototype models, those buffer equipped models still look
more "railroady" to me than US prototypes.
I do however remember some examples of bufferless rail vehicles from
my days in Poland. All the modern trolleys used center couplings (and
didn't' have buffers). Also IIRC, certain types of local commuter
multi-unit trains had what looked to me like automatic center couplers
(and no buffers again). Those couplings were used to couple several
of permanently coupled multi-unit consists together.
Peteski |
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David Nebenzahl
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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On 10/21/2008 6:14 AM Bernhard Agthe spake thus:
| Quote: | David Nebenzahl wrote:
Watched "Von Ryan's Express" last night on TV, and was surprised when it
showed an Italian trainman coupling up cars: you could see the cars
being pushed together, and when the buffers met, the guy ducked under
one of them, grabbed the coupling hook and connected it, then quickly
ducked back out.
Anyone know if this was realistic? Seems incredibly dangerous to this
North Americano; but maybe that's just because of too many years of
indoctrination to such things as FRA regs and working rules ...
Actually in the "Old World" there are no "Janney Couplers" - only the
buffer-and-hook-and-screw type (Russia has a central buffer coupler, but
that's incompatible to everything else).
So what you did see was actually the harmless variant - I did personally
observe the trainmen walking in there (between the buffers) just a few
seconds before the trains actually met. While this might be against
regulation, ducking under the buffers (especially when he comes from
atop a platform) is acrobatic...
|
First of all, thanks to all who answered my question.
Now to bring up a related issue: I hate to say this, but those Yurpeen
cars and locos, with their prominent buffers, just look plain funny to
me. The buffers sticking out always give them, in my mind, a sort of
Thomas the Tank Engine look.
Now, before you type out an angry reply to this, understand that I do
realize that this is totally due to my North American railroad
prejudices, and my familiarity to knuckle couplers, which I'm sure also
look funny to a lot of folks outside of N.A.
In a related vein, what about those buffers? Are there any inherent
advantages to either system: the Yurpeen with its separate buffers on
each side, or ours where the buffer is integral with the coupler and the
members connecting it to the centerbeam? Do European trains experience
the same issues with coupler slack that ours do? Inquiring minds want to
know ...
--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.
- Paulo Freire |
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Erik Olsen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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David Nebenzahl wrote:
| Quote: | In a related vein, what about those buffers? Are there any inherent
advantages to either system: the Yurpeen with its separate buffers on
each side, or ours where the buffer is integral with the coupler and
the members connecting it to the centerbeam? Do European trains
experience the same issues with coupler slack that ours do? Inquiring
minds want to know ...
|
One great advantage with side buffers and screw couplings is that slack
can be completely removed by tightening the screw coupling. This is
normally used on European passenger trains and makes the ride much
smoother than I imagine is possible with the Janney-type couplers with a
lot of slack in them.
Some types of automatic centre couplers used on European DMU and EMU
trains (Scharfenberg types, for instance) have no slack when coupled.
--
Venlig hilsen/Best regards
Erik Olsen
http://www.modelbaneteknik.dk/ |
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Roger T.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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The only difference between Europe and North America is that Europeans, even
within the same country, mush the operational detriment, have not
standardised on one coupler system.
This can and does result in a passenger m.u. failing on the mainline yet the
following train cannot come up behind it and give it a push because their
coupler systems and completely incompatible. They in effect, have to call a
"tow truck" , in the UK known as "Thunderbirds" I gather after the 1960s/70s
TV show of the same name, to come and rescue the stalled unit. Result?
Delays of hours rather than minutes if both 'trains' were equipped with a
standard coupler.
--
Cheers
Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/ |
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Wolf Kirchmeir
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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Erik Olsen wrote:
| Quote: | David Nebenzahl wrote:
In a related vein, what about those buffers? Are there any inherent
advantages to either system: the Yurpeen with its separate buffers on
each side, or ours where the buffer is integral with the coupler and
the members connecting it to the centerbeam? Do European trains
experience the same issues with coupler slack that ours do? Inquiring
minds want to know ...
One great advantage with side buffers and screw couplings is that slack
can be completely removed by tightening the screw coupling. This is
normally used on European passenger trains and makes the ride much
smoother than I imagine is possible with the Janney-type couplers with a
lot of slack in them.
|
They don't have any slack worth mentioning, actually. There buffers are
in fact integral with the knuckle coupler (they are part of the coupler
box.) Thus, there is little slack even in a freight train. The "issues
with slack" mentioned by Dave are nothing compared to the bang-bang-bang
that I used to hear when a British freight train slowed down or started
up on the line a 1/2 block from where I used to live in England. OTOH,
the springs in the buffers do stretch and compress as the trains move,
that's prtesumably waht dave means by "slack." Hence the development of
the "cushion underframe", which extends the spring travel, and thus
reduces the acceleration/deceleration shocks.
On passenger cars, there is also a frame-mounted buffer above the
coupler. This allows coupling with practically no slack at all. In my
experience, Canadian passenger trains are as smooth as the European
ones. If the track is well maintained, that is: there are stretches of
track in Northern Ontario that feel a little like a roller coaster... ;-)
| Quote: | Some types of automatic centre couplers used on European DMU and EMU
trains (Scharfenberg types, for instance) have no slack when coupled.
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If there were no slack, as you call it, the ride would be exceedingly
rough. The couplers in fact have an integral buffer.
HTH
--
Wolf Kirchmeir |
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Roger T.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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"Wolf Kirchmeir" <
| Quote: | They don't have any slack worth mentioning, actually. There buffers are in
fact integral with the knuckle coupler (they are part of the coupler box.)
Thus, there is little slack even in a freight train.
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Not true Wolf.
See:- http://www.ataassociates.com/RailArt.htm#Slack
"On mechanically sound cars, mechanical free motion or free slack between
adjoining couplers can be one inch. Couplers are attached to draft gears
that absorb the shock or impact. Draft gear slack is called spring slack.
Spring slack on a conventional box car is about five inches. Many intermodal
(piggyback) cars have shock control devises or sliding centre sills that can
have fifteen inches of slack in each end.
A 100 car train of conventional cars in good mechanical condition will have
50 feet of slack. Intermodal trains and trains with cars in poor mechanical
condition can have much more slack."
--
Cheers
Roger T.
See the GER at: -
http://www.islandnet.com/~rogertra/ |
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Wolf Kirchmeir
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Big trains question about coupling |
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Roger T. wrote:
| Quote: | "Wolf Kirchmeir"
They don't have any slack worth mentioning, actually. There buffers are in
fact integral with the knuckle coupler (they are part of the coupler box.)
Thus, there is little slack even in a freight train.
Not true Wolf.
See:- http://www.ataassociates.com/RailArt.htm#Slack
"On mechanically sound cars, mechanical free motion or free slack between
adjoining couplers can be one inch. Couplers are attached to draft gears
that absorb the shock or impact. Draft gear slack is called spring slack.
Spring slack on a conventional box car is about five inches. Many intermodal
(piggyback) cars have shock control devises or sliding centre sills that can
have fifteen inches of slack in each end.
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Quite true, but what I said doesn't I think conflict with this. 1 inch
of "free slack" is not worth mentioning, leastways not when you've heard
and observed 4"-6" of free slack in European freight trains (plus as
much or more in the buffers.) I should have been less ambiguous, I
suppose, but I thought my reference to what I saw and heard in England
way back when implied that the "free slack" on those freight cars was
enormous compared to what we know and love in our N. American trains. ;-)
"Draft gear slack" is necessary - it's actually the buffing action,
provided by the traditional side-buffers on European cars, and by
integral buffers in all center couplers used today (some mine- and
industrial tramway-cars excepted.) Cushion frames are designed to
_increase_ that buffing action. By contrast, "free slack" is a necessary
evil in knuckle couplers, it's the play within and between couplers that
enables the knuckles to slide past each other and lock.
AFAIK, there should be no free slack with screw couplings, but when I
observed switching in Austria a couple years ago, there was definitely
more than an inch of free slack. The buffers parted 20cm or more when
the loco started up the cut of cars. The coupler links were simply
lifted into place (ie, "three link couplings" in effect), to save time I
guess.
| Quote: | A 100 car train of conventional cars in good mechanical condition will have
50 feet of slack.
|
That's about 8ft of free slack, and up to 42ft of draft gear slack. But
the train will be 5400 ft long (a 50ft car has a coupled length of about
54ft), so this slack amounts to less than 1% of total train length. Not
much, really. The free slack 9the bad kind ) is less than 1/4% - very
good, I'd say. Hence my "no slack worth mentioning." ;-)
| Quote: | Intermodal trains and trains with cars in poor mechanical
condition can have much more slack."
|
It's the free slack that's the problem, since it causes unsprung shocks,
which are bad, esp. for the couplers.
HTH
--
Wolf Kirchmeir |
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