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Dan Weiss
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 Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On Nov 8, 2:28 am, bsincl...@hawaii.rr.com wrote:
| Quote: | FWIW, I was looking for a standup in the local Naish shop a few months
back( pre 08/10). They said, at that time, the 09 boards would be
more expensive because the price was set in Euros. I would have
guessed dollars or maybe baht.
I wonder how long it will take for the drop in the euro since 8/10 and
the expected drop in price of petroleum based raw materials to result
in significantly lower prices. Maybe late next year? I don't know
enough about the economics of this biz to say. Sounds like a tough
time to be in retail. Boards are overpriced based on what will be
available in the not to distant future, and everyone is feeling
nervous about discretionary spending.
I've been dreaming about buying a small trimaran for a while. The
exchange rate makes these boats very expensive. Wait and see. Maybe
not! Interesting that I can have a boat made and sent to me from asia
or NZ, but I can't get a board sent directly to me from the factory.
bs
On Nov 3, 10:16 am, Chuck <wind...@yahoo.com> wrote:
As the 2009 board manufactures begin to release their new models one
thing seems for certain, the prices have gone even higher! I thought
$1500-$1600.00+ was bad enough on some of the 2008 models but I was
just checking out a 2009 small wave board from a major board
manufacturer and the price listed was $1950.00 for a 68 liter board!
Wow, although I had thought about getting a new board this year, now I
am thinking, maybe not! I know the cost of Carbon has gone up as have
shipping costs etc. but $1950 for a board under 70 liters??? And why
do we pay the same price for a little 68- 75 liter board that takes a
lot less material to make, than its 120-130 liter big brother?
Granted we all know windsurfing has never really been an
inexpensive sport once you really get into it, and lots of us end up
getting some sort of discount off the MSRP, but still the 2009 prices
seem substantially higher. How many can afford that especially
considering the present state of the U.S. and world economy and the
impact on our wallets? Its the same story on the price of 2009 SUP's
which I was also thinking about. I may just look for a closeout 2008
board now or forget about it all together and stick with my older
boards. So I have to wonder how many others out there may hold off on
buying new in 2009?
Chuck
|
Brian:
Just a quick comment on energy prices based on my experience with
clients who price and trade energy.
Energy has been traded as a commodity for quite a number of years and
it no longer connects to straightforward supply versus demand theory.
Materials using petroleum derivatives, such as plastics and epoxies,
tend to reflect the cost of the components at the time of their
original manufacture, which in tern reflect the the price of energy at
an earlier time. Contrast this with gasoline prices that adjust
within about one week of crude price fluctuation.
Shipping costs are out of whack these days since international cargo
is down about 30% and costs to ship a container on an empty ship tends
to be much higher in the average than shipping the container where the
hold is full. So container ships are sitting at ports around the
world and, with a shipping calendar that is less flexible, getting
your container on a specific date may also cost more. Add in the
common fuel surcharge, too.
In our situation, a board from a high volume production facility like
Cobra might reflect a higher wholesale cost simply b/c some of the
components are ordered more regularly than might be the case in a
custom shop where supplies may be kept around a while longer. The
opposite could be true, of course depending on when factory paid for
the energy-based component and volume discounts.
In the end, I suspect that we now can take advantage the competitive
pricing from local custom shapers and board builders since the price
of post-production shipping can be eliminated. I bet this applies
very much to your benefit in Hawaii and in other places like the Gorge
since you can pick up right from the "factory."
-Dan |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On Nov 8, 10:00 am, Dan Weiss <dwus...@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 8, 2:28 am, bsincl...@hawaii.rr.com wrote:
FWIW, I was looking for a standup in the local Naish shop a few months
back( pre 08/10). They said, at that time, the 09 boards would be
more expensive because the price was set in Euros. I would have
guessed dollars or maybe baht.
I wonder how long it will take for the drop in the euro since 8/10 and
the expected drop in price of petroleum based raw materials to result
in significantly lower prices.
Brian:
Just a quick comment on energy prices based on my experience with
clients who price and trade energy.
Energy has been traded as a commodity for quite a number of years and
it no longer connects to straightforward supply versus demand theory.
Materials using petroleum derivatives, such as plastics and epoxies,
tend to reflect the cost of the components at the time of their
original manufacture, which in tern reflect the the price of energy at
an earlier time. Contrast this with gasoline prices that adjust
within about one week of crude price fluctuation.
Shipping costs are out of whack these days since international cargo
is down about 30% and costs to ship a container on an empty ship tends
to be much higher in the average than shipping the container where the
hold is full. So container ships are sitting at ports around the
world and, with a shipping calendar that is less flexible, getting
your container on a specific date may also cost more. Add in the
common fuel surcharge, too.
In our situation, a board from a high volume production facility like
Cobra might reflect a higher wholesale cost simply b/c some of the
components are ordered more regularly than might be the case in a
custom shop where supplies may be kept around a while longer. The
opposite could be true, of course depending on when factory paid for
the energy-based component and volume discounts.
In the end, I suspect that we now can take advantage the competitive
pricing from local custom shapers and board builders since the price
of post-production shipping can be eliminated. I bet this applies
very much to your benefit in Hawaii and in other places like the Gorge
since you can pick up right from the "factory."
-Dan
|
Dan,
Always educational, thanks.
I thought it was interesting that the price change Chuck described
more or less mirrored the exchange rate from mid 07 to mid 08. I
wonder if the board price is set for the whole year, or do they adjust
the price on latter in season production runs to reflect the change in
the exchange rate? |
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Dan Weiss
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On Nov 9, 2:01 am, bsincl...@hawaii.rr.com wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 8, 10:00 am, Dan Weiss <dwus...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Nov 8, 2:28 am, bsincl...@hawaii.rr.com wrote:
FWIW, I was looking for a standup in the local Naish shop a few months
back( pre 08/10). They said, at that time, the 09 boards would be
more expensive because the price was set in Euros. I would have
guessed dollars or maybe baht.
I wonder how long it will take for the drop in the euro since 8/10 and
the expected drop in price of petroleum based raw materials to result
in significantly lower prices.
Brian:
Just a quick comment on energy prices based on my experience with
clients who price and trade energy.
Energy has been traded as a commodity for quite a number of years and
it no longer connects to straightforward supply versus demand theory.
Materials using petroleum derivatives, such as plastics and epoxies,
tend to reflect the cost of the components at the time of their
original manufacture, which in tern reflect the the price of energy at
an earlier time. Contrast this with gasoline prices that adjust
within about one week of crude price fluctuation.
Shipping costs are out of whack these days since international cargo
is down about 30% and costs to ship a container on an empty ship tends
to be much higher in the average than shipping the container where the
hold is full. So container ships are sitting at ports around the
world and, with a shipping calendar that is less flexible, getting
your container on a specific date may also cost more. Add in the
common fuel surcharge, too.
In our situation, a board from a high volume production facility like
Cobra might reflect a higher wholesale cost simply b/c some of the
components are ordered more regularly than might be the case in a
custom shop where supplies may be kept around a while longer. The
opposite could be true, of course depending on when factory paid for
the energy-based component and volume discounts.
In the end, I suspect that we now can take advantage the competitive
pricing from local custom shapers and board builders since the price
of post-production shipping can be eliminated. I bet this applies
very much to your benefit in Hawaii and in other places like the Gorge
since you can pick up right from the "factory."
-Dan
Dan,
Always educational, thanks.
I thought it was interesting that the price change Chuck described
more or less mirrored the exchange rate from mid 07 to mid 08. I
wonder if the board price is set for the whole year, or do they adjust
the price on latter in season production runs to reflect the change in
the exchange rate?
|
My experience is that, notwithstanding sales or special pricing,
wholesale prices for windsurfing items are set at the release of each
season's line -or at the time when pre-orders are offered. If
wholesale prices fluctuated with the rate, the windsurfing trade would
be nothing more than a banking system dealing in arbitrage, since
fluctuations in the cost of money sometimes reflect a significant
percentage of the profit margins between each link in the distribution
chain. For example, if a distributor were to give a shop "keystone"
credit for wholesale gear purchases whose prices fluctuated with the
exchange rate, the shop would time payment to match the best rate.
Good for the shop, terrible for the distributor who could loose 3-10%
of its margin but would almost never be on the winning side of that
strategy.
I think it is true that exporting companies try hard to make their
products affordable in the countries with a negative currency
exchange. So a Bic priced at $1,200 US might sell for the equivalent
of, say, $1,900 when converted to Euros in Paris. The local value of
the exporter's currency does not change, but the foreign value does,
so exports to certain countries may be discounted to make the products
affordable and to defend market share.
At least that's how I understand it.
-Dan |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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I'm assuming your talking US prices. In the place called Canada have
been paying 1500 -1800 for some time, and we're not a remote economy,
but your nextdoor neighbors. The industry is mad if it thinks it can
grow participation with these high prices.The entry level bic techno
classic is $800. Not a bad board, but but fragile, fugly orange and an
oldschool outline. As for the new "fastest growth segment" in
windsurfing, freestyle, a JP or Skate will likely set you back $2000
plus. I'm under 25 and i have to say that MANY potential sailors my
age will choose kiteboarding for it's relative low cost and current
high cultural appeal associated with wakeboarding. Our windsurfing
forums are inhabited with "users" hocking kite gear and pointing out
some of the inefficientcies of windsurfing while boosting
kiteboarding. Choosing between specialized freestyle windsurfing gear
( $2000 plus at least three sails, 2 masts?) and "do it all" kiteboard
gear ( one freeride board, one freestyle for under $1000 plus 12m
kite) is an obvious choice for someone young and on a budget. And it
all fits in your honda civic hatchback, plus buddies and their gear).
We're all stoked for windsurfing, our specialized skill and
equipment ,but now is a perfect time for a lower-cost alternative
(kiteboarding) or equipment that handles excess lateral forces better
without sail switching (kitewing, as of now ridiculously expensive but
the simple, no carbon, robust design could potentially be cheap to
manufacture ) to infiltrate the market.
Fortunately, used gear is cheap here, uv damage and wear n tear is low
(only 8 months to sail on water, usually fresh) Unfortunately most of
it is 1998-2005 era which means break- when -you- sneeze monofilm and
narrow tail/big fin shortboards. Will windsurfing turn into a second
hand sport, or a stepping stone on the way to rival sailing sports?
Will it be harder to convince the 20 something market that windsurfing
isn't a high strung, losing technology?
Chuck wrote:
| Quote: | As the 2009 board manufactures begin to release their new models one
thing seems for certain, the prices have gone even higher! I thought
$1500-$1600.00+ was bad enough on some of the 2008 models but I was
just checking out a 2009 small wave board from a major board
manufacturer and the price listed was $1950.00 for a 68 liter board!
Wow, although I had thought about getting a new board this year, now I
am thinking, maybe not! I know the cost of Carbon has gone up as have
shipping costs etc. but $1950 for a board under 70 liters??? And why
do we pay the same price for a little 68- 75 liter board that takes a
lot less material to make, than its 120-130 liter big brother?
Granted we all know windsurfing has never really been an
inexpensive sport once you really get into it, and lots of us end up
getting some sort of discount off the MSRP, but still the 2009 prices
seem substantially higher. How many can afford that especially
considering the present state of the U.S. and world economy and the
impact on our wallets? Its the same story on the price of 2009 SUP's
which I was also thinking about. I may just look for a closeout 2008
board now or forget about it all together and stick with my older
boards. So I have to wonder how many others out there may hold off on
buying new in 2009?
Chuck |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:26 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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Its pretty hard to be optimistic about the windsurfing industry with
the recent high prices and the economic problems facing the global
economy. Recent strength of the US dollar against the euro may help
some in pricing next year, perhaps. But $2000 for a new board is
pretty hard to take. I fear that with kitesurfing taking up market
share, a weak economy, declining sales, etc, we will be losing some
more board makers and shops. But then, this is not a lot different
than the situation many industries are facing. A big problem with
windsurfing is that there is so much used geat out there that is
pretty darn good, at a fraction of the cost of new stuff. |
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Dan Weiss
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On Nov 11, 9:26 pm, rand...@aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Its pretty hard to be optimistic about the windsurfing industry with
the recent high prices and the economic problems facing the global
economy. Recent strength of the US dollar against the euro may help
some in pricing next year, perhaps. But $2000 for a new board is
pretty hard to take. I fear that with kitesurfing taking up market
share, a weak economy, declining sales, etc, we will be losing some
more board makers and shops. But then, this is not a lot different
than the situation many industries are facing. A big problem with
windsurfing is that there is so much used geat out there that is
pretty darn good, at a fraction of the cost of new stuff.
|
I'm a bit unclear why the gnashing of teeth at today's prices -other
than a possible reduction in personal economy. With all due respect
to the
"prognosticators of doom" [  ], many new boards have been north of
$2000 for a very long time. I know that custom slalom boards on Maui
in 1987 were over $1,500, and the race boards of the early 1990s were
over $2,000. My 2003 AHD 98 NT FW board retailed for $2,400.
If we discount for inflation, a $1,000 board in 1987 would now cost
$1,803 based on increase in the Consumer Price Index through 2007. A
board costing $2,000 in 2007 would have sold for $1,109 in 1987.
Perhaps the gear is more expensive if we account for reduced amounts
of discretionary income in the last year. Bemoaning the true cost of
windsurfing gear as high is factually flawed, but perception of one's
ability to afford new gear is the final arbiter of whether we buy the
board or not. And it appears some of us will wait. |
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sailin fool
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On Nov 11, 9:16 pm, Dan Weiss <dwus...@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 11, 9:26 pm, rand...@aol.com wrote:
Its pretty hard to be optimistic about the windsurfing industry with
the recent high prices and the economic problems facing the global
economy. Recent strength of the US dollar against the euro may help
some in pricing next year, perhaps. But $2000 for a new board is
pretty hard to take. I fear that with kitesurfing taking up market
share, a weak economy, declining sales, etc, we will be losing some
more board makers and shops. But then, this is not a lot different
than the situation many industries are facing. A big problem with
windsurfing is that there is so much used geat out there that is
pretty darn good, at a fraction of the cost of new stuff.
I'm a bit unclear why the gnashing of teeth at today's prices -other
than a possible reduction in personal economy. With all due respect
to the
"prognosticators of doom" [ ], many new boards have been north of
$2000 for a very long time. I know that custom slalom boards on Maui
in 1987 were over $1,500, and the race boards of the early 1990s were
over $2,000. My 2003 AHD 98 NT FW board retailed for $2,400.
If we discount for inflation, a $1,000 board in 1987 would now cost
$1,803 based on increase in the Consumer Price Index through 2007. A
board costing $2,000 in 2007 would have sold for $1,109 in 1987.
Perhaps the gear is more expensive if we account for reduced amounts
of discretionary income in the last year. Bemoaning the true cost of
windsurfing gear as high is factually flawed, but perception of one's
ability to afford new gear is the final arbiter of whether we buy the
board or not. And it appears some of us will wait.
|
I think what most are referring to here is the recent jump in 2009
retail prices over those of the last few seasons. From an industry
perspective I can't see why, as most materials have not really
increased that much. It seems as if Cobra has everyone dancing to
their tune, but I think the industry will suffer in 2009 due to the
timing of these increases with poor economic conditions.
my .02 |
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Dan Weiss
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On Nov 12, 12:20 pm, sailin fool <Caleb3...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 11, 9:16 pm, Dan Weiss <dwus...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Nov 11, 9:26 pm, rand...@aol.com wrote:
Its pretty hard to be optimistic about the windsurfing industry with
the recent high prices and the economic problems facing the global
economy. Recent strength of the US dollar against the euro may help
some in pricing next year, perhaps. But $2000 for a new board is
pretty hard to take. I fear that with kitesurfing taking up market
share, a weak economy, declining sales, etc, we will be losing some
more board makers and shops. But then, this is not a lot different
than the situation many industries are facing. A big problem with
windsurfing is that there is so much used geat out there that is
pretty darn good, at a fraction of the cost of new stuff.
I'm a bit unclear why the gnashing of teeth at today's prices -other
than a possible reduction in personal economy. With all due respect
to the
"prognosticators of doom" [ ], many new boards have been north of
$2000 for a very long time. I know that custom slalom boards on Maui
in 1987 were over $1,500, and the race boards of the early 1990s were
over $2,000. My 2003 AHD 98 NT FW board retailed for $2,400.
If we discount for inflation, a $1,000 board in 1987 would now cost
$1,803 based on increase in the Consumer Price Index through 2007. A
board costing $2,000 in 2007 would have sold for $1,109 in 1987.
Perhaps the gear is more expensive if we account for reduced amounts
of discretionary income in the last year. Bemoaning the true cost of
windsurfing gear as high is factually flawed, but perception of one's
ability to afford new gear is the final arbiter of whether we buy the
board or not. And it appears some of us will wait.
I think what most are referring to here is the recent jump in 2009
retail prices over those of the last few seasons. From an industry
perspective I can't see why, as most materials have not really
increased that much. It seems as if Cobra has everyone dancing to
their tune, but I think the industry will suffer in 2009 due to the
timing of these increases with poor economic conditions.
my .02
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Gotcha. I think a great question, then, is whether the economy of
scale offered by Cobra kept price increases below the inflation rate
and if so, what accounts for the change going into 2009? I can tell
you that several of my clients have expressed difficulty in obtaining
lines of credit under the same favorable terms and that the extra
business cost under those new terms caused them to increase their
prices. Cobra is quite an operation and might rely on credit issues
just like so many of us. We might thank the securitized debt market
for the price of a wave board! |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On 12 nov, 13:12, Dan Weiss <dwus...@comcast.net> wrote:
Great stuff Dan.
I work with the marketing department of a large supplier. Corporations
often (not always) have long term views, immediate profit versus
market share for long-term revenues. However, usually individuals who
take immediate pricing decisions in those departments go for the quick
and immediate profit, with no regards to the long run. They are goaled
for the next 12 months at the most (bonuses, etc.). I find this is
happening in our industry as well as many others.
Regardless of the economics dissertation you put forth, which again is
great, most manufacturers, in association with popular windsurfing
magazines, try to push for quick (less than a year) obsolescence. Of
course this is bs, I mean pros were and would still be great on 2- and
5yo old gear. But it works, just look at the various fora. Sailors
that are below PWA standard actually believe they must get the 0.15
pound lighter board, they actually buy that 2yo gear is not sailable,
and so on. It's all over (as well as at my local waterhole).
At least one third of magazines covers are about next year's models,
how much lighter and more skilled you're gonna be on those. This
occupies a large portion of fora, again. All advices given to newbies
on the fora (given by the mid-class, which I probably am) is about
buying multiple gear, must have recent boards, 2yo gear is crap, and
so on.
The industry is milking itself to death, and it's well deserved. |
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Dan Weiss
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On Nov 13, 7:53 am, pierrecou...@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | On 12 nov, 13:12, Dan Weiss <dwus...@comcast.net> wrote:
Great stuff Dan.
I work with the marketing department of a large supplier. Corporations
often (not always) have long term views, immediate profit versus
market share for long-term revenues. However, usually individuals who
take immediate pricing decisions in those departments go for the quick
and immediate profit, with no regards to the long run. They are goaled
for the next 12 months at the most (bonuses, etc.). I find this is
happening in our industry as well as many others.
Regardless of the economics dissertation you put forth, which again is
great, most manufacturers, in association with popular windsurfing
magazines, try to push for quick (less than a year) obsolescence. Of
course this is bs, I mean pros were and would still be great on 2- and
5yo old gear. But it works, just look at the various fora. Sailors
that are below PWA standard actually believe they must get the 0.15
pound lighter board, they actually buy that 2yo gear is not sailable,
and so on. It's all over (as well as at my local waterhole).
At least one third of magazines covers are about next year's models,
how much lighter and more skilled you're gonna be on those. This
occupies a large portion of fora, again. All advices given to newbies
on the fora (given by the mid-class, which I probably am) is about
buying multiple gear, must have recent boards, 2yo gear is crap, and
so on.
The industry is milking itself to death, and it's well deserved.
|
Pierre: Don't you think that professional athletes will always
develop better equipment given the opportunity? Many windsurfing
brands tend to place competition results toward the top of their
marketing plan and utilize the pro sailors to achieve this. I believe
annual incremental improvements can and has made windsurfing easier
and more accessible. We must recognize that our sport did not jump
from plastic boards and fiberglass masts straight to fun shortboards
that start planing at 10 knots, travel 35 knots and still grab bunches
of sky. Each year is better, mostly.
I think the question of whether today's windsurfers benefit from
modern gear may be answered by looking at what the pros sail on their
days off. It's not an old Sailboard Masterclass from 1980 or even the
original Mistral Diamond Head. The new stuff actually works better.
Certainly most people don't need to gear up every year. Most people
also don't need to windsurf at all. We do it for fun, for excitement,
to achieve personal goals, to enjoy the water -all that. And by doing
it we look forward to new designs and graphics. It is a human
response.
Enough of my rant. I'm off to the shopping center to buy a stylish
new tie that I absolutely need.
-Dan |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On 13 nov, 12:21, Dan Weiss <dwus...@comcast.net> wrote:
Always great posts, dude!
Have a look at http://www.storyofstuff.com/, it's related to this
thread.
| Quote: | Pierre: Don't you think that professional athletes will always
develop better equipment given the opportunity? Many windsurfing
brands tend to place competition results toward the top of their
marketing plan and utilize the pro sailors to achieve this.
|
Happy with all this. They do what they want, kudos, great, it's their
business, and so on.
| Quote: | I believe
annual incremental improvements can and has made windsurfing easier
and more accessible.
|
It is less accessible than ever. That's why the water spots are only a
fraction than what it used to be. Unless someone buys a Go and chucks
it out after 6 months, nobody really picks up the sport anymore
(successfully, that is). Too bad, they lose on the enjoyment of the
sport you refer to below.
Funny how in the old days with crappy gear, and I really think it was
crappy, the success rate for learning was so much higher than today...
| Quote: | I think the question of whether today's windsurfers benefit from
modern gear may be answered by looking at what the pros sail on their
days off.
|
I beg to differ, strongly too. We cannot judge of average windsurfers'
benefits by looking at pros. On the contrary.
Yes, a few non-pros do take up modern freestyle and double forwards
whereby the 2009 gear is going to give an edge over the 2008
equivalent. But other than that, I find the average skills (and
perhaps that includes me!) to be just what it was 20 years ago.
Actually I would swear people have more problem gybing than ever! Just
look it up in popular fora.
I find the multiple gear counter-productive. Firstly, sailors don't
seem happy anymore, I've had non-sailor co-workers point that out to
me. Amazing.
Second, I see guys de-rig and re-rig all day as the wind goes up or
down one little knot... to be underpowered all day in the end. Lots of
that.
| Quote: | It's not an old Sailboard Masterclass from 1980 or even the
original Mistral Diamond Head. The new stuff actually works better.
|
For pros, yes. For average Joe that keeps buying brand new gear all
the time? I was digitizing home movies from 15 years ago and watching
guys on the water then, I see little difference in skills, only in
gear. It's a scam, IMO.
| Quote: | Certainly most people don't need to gear up every year. Most people
also don't need to windsurf at all.
|
One precludes not the other.
Absolutely not a problem with buying new gear, though I don't like the
ecological waste about it - please recycle all this deadly fiberglass
and plastic and foam. There is a problem if that makes people sail
less and less, and if the gimmick around it discourages newcomers.
| Quote: | We do it for fun, for excitement,
to achieve personal goals, to enjoy the water -all that.
|
Fully agreed, the problem seems to be with the enjoyment side of it.
A common reason for people dropping out of the sport (and not be happy
somewhere else) is that windsurfing is getting expensive, that they're
too good for the wind. "I'm switching to kiting."
| Quote: | Enough of my rant. I'm off to the shopping center to buy a stylish
new tie that I absolutely need.
|
Again: http://www.storyofstuff.com/. Happy shopping !
;-) |
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the principal
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On Nov 15, 9:28 am, pierrecou...@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | On 13 nov, 12:21, Dan Weiss <dwus...@comcast.net> wrote:
Always great posts, dude!
Have a look athttp://www.storyofstuff.com/, it's related to this
thread.
Pierre: Don't you think that professional athletes will always
develop better equipment given the opportunity? Many windsurfing
brands tend to place competition results toward the top of their
marketing plan and utilize the pro sailors to achieve this.
Happy with all this. They do what they want, kudos, great, it's their
business, and so on.
I believe
annual incremental improvements can and has made windsurfing easier
and more accessible.
It is less accessible than ever. That's why the water spots are only a
fraction than what it used to be. Unless someone buys a Go and chucks
it out after 6 months, nobody really picks up the sport anymore
(successfully, that is). Too bad, they lose on the enjoyment of the
sport you refer to below.
Funny how in the old days with crappy gear, and I really think it was
crappy, the success rate for learning was so much higher than today...
I think the question of whether today's windsurfers benefit from
modern gear may be answered by looking at what the pros sail on their
days off.
I beg to differ, strongly too. We cannot judge of average windsurfers'
benefits by looking at pros. On the contrary.
Yes, a few non-pros do take up modern freestyle and double forwards
whereby the 2009 gear is going to give an edge over the 2008
equivalent. But other than that, I find the average skills (and
perhaps that includes me!) to be just what it was 20 years ago.
Actually I would swear people have more problem gybing than ever! Just
look it up in popular fora.
I find the multiple gear counter-productive. Firstly, sailors don't
seem happy anymore, I've had non-sailor co-workers point that out to
me. Amazing.
Second, I see guys de-rig and re-rig all day as the wind goes up or
down one little knot... to be underpowered all day in the end. Lots of
that.
It's not an old Sailboard Masterclass from 1980 or even the
original Mistral Diamond Head. The new stuff actually works better.
For pros, yes. For average Joe that keeps buying brand new gear all
the time? I was digitizing home movies from 15 years ago and watching
guys on the water then, I see little difference in skills, only in
gear. It's a scam, IMO.
Certainly most people don't need to gear up every year. Most people
also don't need to windsurf at all.
One precludes not the other.
Absolutely not a problem with buying new gear, though I don't like the
ecological waste about it - please recycle all this deadly fiberglass
and plastic and foam. There is a problem if that makes people sail
less and less, and if the gimmick around it discourages newcomers.
We do it for fun, for excitement,
to achieve personal goals, to enjoy the water -all that.
Fully agreed, the problem seems to be with the enjoyment side of it.
A common reason for people dropping out of the sport (and not be happy
somewhere else) is that windsurfing is getting expensive, that they're
too good for the wind. "I'm switching to kiting."
Enough of my rant. I'm off to the shopping center to buy a stylish
new tie that I absolutely need.
Again:http://www.storyofstuff.com/. Happy shopping !
;-)
|
Thanks for that link Pierre. It was one of the better produced media I
have seen on the subject.
I didn't agree with all of it but that is OK. It gave me a chance to
revisit those. Other core
cause and effect explainations of what harm "stuff" can do I do fully
believe.
Hate stuff, hate globalization even more.
Over the last decade I have become a non-shopper. (windsurfing gear
excluded) I buy a ton of that.
rarely new. Only been to a mall once in the last 5 years. I take one
small galvanized garbage can
of trash to the curb every two weeks that includes Gatorade bottles
(love that stuff and plan on buying
the powder from now on) cardboard, everything.
I don't recycle. feel better effort is spent by not buying "stuff". It
adresses the cause better.
To put that in perspective it means daily life results in 130 cubic
feet of loosly packed trash per year.
Compacted that would be about 10 cubic foot. For the rest of my days I
will not be able to fill a
small home with my everyday garbage. Its easy to do better. |
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Dan Weiss
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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|
On Nov 15, 2:21 pm, the principal <johnsi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 15, 9:28 am, pierrecou...@gmail.com wrote:
On 13 nov, 12:21, Dan Weiss <dwus...@comcast.net> wrote:
Always great posts, dude!
Have a look athttp://www.storyofstuff.com/, it's related to this
thread.
Pierre: Don't you think that professional athletes will always
develop better equipment given the opportunity? Many windsurfing
brands tend to place competition results toward the top of their
marketing plan and utilize the pro sailors to achieve this.
Happy with all this. They do what they want, kudos, great, it's their
business, and so on.
I believe
annual incremental improvements can and has made windsurfing easier
and more accessible.
It is less accessible than ever. That's why the water spots are only a
fraction than what it used to be. Unless someone buys a Go and chucks
it out after 6 months, nobody really picks up the sport anymore
(successfully, that is). Too bad, they lose on the enjoyment of the
sport you refer to below.
Funny how in the old days with crappy gear, and I really think it was
crappy, the success rate for learning was so much higher than today...
I think the question of whether today's windsurfers benefit from
modern gear may be answered by looking at what the pros sail on their
days off.
I beg to differ, strongly too. We cannot judge of average windsurfers'
benefits by looking at pros. On the contrary.
Yes, a few non-pros do take up modern freestyle and double forwards
whereby the 2009 gear is going to give an edge over the 2008
equivalent. But other than that, I find the average skills (and
perhaps that includes me!) to be just what it was 20 years ago.
Actually I would swear people have more problem gybing than ever! Just
look it up in popular fora.
I find the multiple gear counter-productive. Firstly, sailors don't
seem happy anymore, I've had non-sailor co-workers point that out to
me. Amazing.
Second, I see guys de-rig and re-rig all day as the wind goes up or
down one little knot... to be underpowered all day in the end. Lots of
that.
It's not an old Sailboard Masterclass from 1980 or even the
original Mistral Diamond Head. The new stuff actually works better..
For pros, yes. For average Joe that keeps buying brand new gear all
the time? I was digitizing home movies from 15 years ago and watching
guys on the water then, I see little difference in skills, only in
gear. It's a scam, IMO.
Certainly most people don't need to gear up every year. Most people
also don't need to windsurf at all.
One precludes not the other.
Absolutely not a problem with buying new gear, though I don't like the
ecological waste about it - please recycle all this deadly fiberglass
and plastic and foam. There is a problem if that makes people sail
less and less, and if the gimmick around it discourages newcomers.
We do it for fun, for excitement,
to achieve personal goals, to enjoy the water -all that.
Fully agreed, the problem seems to be with the enjoyment side of it.
A common reason for people dropping out of the sport (and not be happy
somewhere else) is that windsurfing is getting expensive, that they're
too good for the wind. "I'm switching to kiting."
Enough of my rant. I'm off to the shopping center to buy a stylish
new tie that I absolutely need.
Again:http://www.storyofstuff.com/. Happy shopping !
;-)
Thanks for that link Pierre. It was one of the better produced media I
have seen on the subject.
I didn't agree with all of it but that is OK. It gave me a chance to
revisit those. Other core
cause and effect explainations of what harm "stuff" can do I do fully
believe.
Hate stuff, hate globalization even more.
Over the last decade I have become a non-shopper. (windsurfing gear
excluded) I buy a ton of that.
rarely new. Only been to a mall once in the last 5 years. I take one
small galvanized garbage can
of trash to the curb every two weeks that includes Gatorade bottles
(love that stuff and plan on buying
the powder from now on) cardboard, everything.
I don't recycle. feel better effort is spent by not buying "stuff". It
adresses the cause better.
To put that in perspective it means daily life results in 130 cubic
feet of loosly packed trash per year.
Compacted that would be about 10 cubic foot. For the rest of my days I
will not be able to fill a
small home with my everyday garbage. Its easy to do better.
|
I don't throw away my gear; it's either sold or given away. I suppose
it will hit the landfill one day, but I recently saw a stair railing
made from the exact 1991 Chinook boom that I sold to the fellow in
1993. We can make our own decisions about what gear to buy and
when. There is no need to bit the hand that feed us.
Pierre: As for new gear being better, it's not all better for
everyone, of course. I first tried windsurfing in 1979 as a 12 year
old and became engrossed by 1981. I've sailed on lots of different
gear that I know held me back. Here's one example: A 1986 Mistral
Hookipa was my first solely-owned board. I used it a ton and even
brought it with me for a year on Maui in 1987. I sailed everywhere
and everything on it, from Camp One bump and jump to Hookipa. I
pulled off exactly one planing jibe on that thing before I bought a
custom Harold Iggy slalom board straight off the World Cup. Suddendly
I could jibe and it took about 2 hours to be able to pull off my first
hand drag jibe and about 2 days to start ripping duck jibes. I went
right back to the Hookipa and started jibing as if I had done so for 2
years.
The difference, my friend, was the board. From that custom board I
was able to elevate my sailing to a level that I always had wanted.
It was so nice to sail and especially responsive that it served as a
virtual coach. Not only was it faster than anything else on the water
in my area, but I learned a variety of jibing techniques for different
situations, from the slam to the laydown to a monkey jibe. I assure
you, it was the board.
My experience cannot support that claim that all new stuff is better
at all things than the models replaced. A few years of development,
however, offers meaningful benefit for those looking to buy.
-Dan |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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On 15 nov, 20:24, Dan Weiss <dwus...@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | The difference, my friend, was the board. From that custom board (...)
My experience cannot support that claim that all new stuff is better
at all things than the models replaced.
|
I'm sure it was, I had similar experiences in the past. You went from
the Hookipa (which I thought was crap when I sailed it in the '80s,
but to each his own) to custom.
We're talking more here about the average sailors that chuck 1- and 2-
yo equipment for the 1.3 ounces lighter version, because the magazines
told them so. I mean, just look at the average skills on a windy day
and all the quivers out, and I say: "what a waste", and those are the
arguments they will use later to switch to kiting - "equipment is
multiple and big", "too expensive". It's the same arguments
prospective newbies are given, that is not true and it discourages
them (decline of the sport). Fancier gear also prevents guys from
working on skills.
| Quote: | A few years of development,
however, offers meaningful benefit for those looking to buy
|
Few years, which is about the lifespan of modern equipment: exactly!
It's broken, and by then you have to buy anyways and gear has
improved: do it, man!! But a season later because marketing told me
this-that sail will allow me to plane in 0.4 knots earlier or will
make my gybes easier (yes, magazines boards review *do* say things
like that), well, you know...
Cheers,
P. |
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Bob T
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Buying a Board in 2009? Maybe not! |
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We deserve some of the credit or blame for these price increases. We
have to be some of the stupidest consumers on the planet. We choose a
sail just for the graphics. We pass by some great sails which are
clean and pure and demand sails which are bright and anqular. Same
with boards. We reward mind blowing graphics with our purchase but we
don't have an idea in hell how well it's made. Does anyone actually
understand what a single shot sandwich is? But damn, the graphics are
great and we luv the color! Makes me long for the days when all
boards were white!
Ok, if they want to raise the price, we need to make them raise the
bar. Tell us exactly how its made in terms we understand and can
relate to. An example, does anyone have any earthly idea how an
Angulo Sumo is made? Or just about any other board you can mention.
You can't find it on their website. Just some marketing bull. Same
with the most other boards. Could be, if we knew the truth, we
wouldn't buy. Everybody has heard of examples of boards touted as
having carbon and no carbon was to be found. We need to be a lot
better at selecting the equipment we purchase. |
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