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 Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:02 am Post subject: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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Michelle DiCamillo
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:02 am Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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"Peter T. Chattaway" wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Jason Steiner wrote:
: The lurkers support me in email
: "So why don't they post?" you all cry
: They're scared of your hostile intentions
: they're not as courageous as I.
*shrug* This from the man who kill-filed me around the time I put him in
contact with an atheist friend of mine who thought he was giving atheists
a bad name. Of course, she has no interest in Christian music, so she
never even *reads* this group, much less posts to it. But since she's a
good friend of mine and she's a committed atheist, I used to keep her
posted on Steiner's latest rantings, just to get her feedback.
Ah well, at least Steiner doesn't pretend that *he* has supporters. ;)
--- Peter T. Chattaway --------------------------- peter@chattaway.com ---
Nothing tells memories from ordinary moments; only afterwards do they
claim remembrance, on account of their scars. -- Chris Marker, La Jetee |
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Michelle DiCamillo
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:08 am Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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Jason Steiner wrote:
| Quote: | One day I'll round up all my lurkers
we'll have a newsgroup of our own
without all this flak from you morons
my lurkers will post round my throne.
Lurkers etc.
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It's ironic how you complain about the "morons." Why are they morons to you?
Because you disagree with their beliefs. So you consider them morons. And they
annoy you. Yet you fail to acknowledge that you're in THEIR group.
For someone who deludes himself with the idea of being some kind of intellectual as
much as you do, it's amazing how dimwitted you truly are. You speak ("sing") of
having your own group one day, free of the "morons." Guess what. You could be
free of the "morons" RIGHT NOW by leaving this group. Wow, what a concept. I'm
sure all the "morons" would be happier with you gone as well.
You are quite possibly the most self-absorbed, ignorant individual I have ever seen
on USENET, and that is saying a lot. I mean a ton. I have read and posted on
USENET since approximately 1993 and I have to say that you take the cake.
Fortunately for me, I have athiest friends so I realize you're not all this
moronic. Obviously my athiest friends and I disagree on some very fundamental
issues but they're civilized, intelligent, open-minded individuals. I don't think
Jason is really an athiest. I think he does believe in a god and worships that god
wholeheartedly.
That god is himself. |
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Michelle DiCamillo
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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Jason,
I don't think that guy would have to edit your emails by so much as a comma before
fowarding them in order to make you come across like a schmuck. Believe me, you do
a solid job of that all by yourself.
As far as the itch you speak of, I'm sure those around here would consider it more
of a hemorrhoid than anything else. For me, however, I don't view you as much with
contempt, anger, or annoyance as I do with pity. You are obviously a pathetic
little man with no life in order to be an athiest trolling a Christian newsgroup.
I'm a vegan, yet I don't believe I'd spend my time in a beef newsgroup berating the
red meat eaters over their beliefs. Why? Because it's a waste of time. Because I
have a life. Most of all, because it's their newsgroup, and they're welcome to
believe and discuss what they want.
The "lurker army" that you speak of in your other message IS indeed there, you're
right. But they're fighting for the other side. Sorry.
Jason Steiner wrote:
| Quote: |
The fact that you bother to forward a (no-doubt unbiased and unedited)
sample of my posts to your friend tells me that I'm doing my job.
What I write bugs you. Bugs you enough that even though you can't and
won't address it, you feel the need to soothe the itch.
But no matter how many people you can find to say that Jason is
a big old meanie, deep down inside you still know that real evidence
is better than hypothetical evidence.
Itch, itch, itch.
jason
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Jason Steiner
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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Michelle DiCamillo <mich.dicamillo@metroscale.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "Peter T. Chattaway" wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Jason Steiner wrote:
: The lurkers support me in email
: "So why don't they post?" you all cry
: They're scared of your hostile intentions
: they're not as courageous as I.
*shrug* This from the man who kill-filed me around the time I put him in
contact with an atheist friend of mine who thought he was giving atheists
a bad name. Of course, she has no interest in Christian music, so she
never even *reads* this group, much less posts to it. But since she's a
good friend of mine and she's a committed atheist, I used to keep her
posted on Steiner's latest rantings, just to get her feedback.
Ah well, at least Steiner doesn't pretend that *he* has supporters. 
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Wow, that makes two Christians who don't understand satire.
But we already know that Christians can't think. No news there. What
I'm curious about now is, what it is about Christians that makes them
crave the approval of atheists so much?
jason
--
"Listen, my boy, I can't abide children. I know it's the style nowadays to
make a terrible fuss over you - but I don't go for it. As far as I'm concerned,
they're no good for anything but screaming, torturing people, breaking things,
smearing books with jam and tearing the pages." - The Neverending Story |
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Bob Weigel
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Can a Steiner be a Christian? |
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He always shows the glimpses of sanity every few posts where he proves
he capable of rational thought. Michelle...learn from the Donkey and move
on. You definitely set yourself up for this one. Read the original article
and if you don't understand it, get help rather than assuming dumb things
and posting stuff about how 'ironic' it is ....  Jason the atheist in
all his wisdom did what any of us who think would have done.
My question is, why don't any of the Christians in here post stuff
that might help Jason? Like pointing out the fundamental flaws in his
arguments against Christianity and inconsistencies in his own philosophies?
I could write a similar verse to the tune below....
"My Steiner he posts to our fine group
spanks "Chrisitans" who don't seem to think
He killfile's the few who reveal him
as the self righteous missing link..ohhh
Steiner, Steiner, will anyone else tell him the tru uuuth.
Steiner, Steiner, or just let him keep tightening his own Noosstttthhh.
err..uhh sorry. (towel's at no extra charge..)
-Bob
Jason Steiner <jason@gaydeceiver.com> wrote in message
news:ghc6db.jk.ln@shell.gaydeceiver.com...
| Quote: | Michelle DiCamillo <mich.dicamillo@metroscale.net> wrote:
Jason Steiner wrote:
One day I'll round up all my lurkers
we'll have a newsgroup of our own
without all this flak from you morons
my lurkers will post round my throne.
Lurkers etc.
It's ironic how you complain about the "morons." Why are they
morons to you?
Not clear on the concept of "satire", are you?
Because you disagree with their beliefs. So you consider them morons.
Actually, I wasn't calling anyone a moron. But since you thought I
was, I'll make an exception in your case.
jason
--
"Listen, my boy, I can't abide children. I know it's the style nowadays to
make a terrible fuss over you - but I don't go for it. As far as I'm
concerned,
they're no good for anything but screaming, torturing people, breaking
things,
smearing books with jam and tearing the pages." - The Neverending Story |
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Joe Finch
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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| Quote: | Quite. Goths just ain't what they used to be. Manson? Pfah. Shock rock
bilge
without an ounce of talent or imagination. Sisters of Mercy are where
it's
at...
UH...last I checked...Manson wasn't goth. |
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Ludwig77
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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| Quote: |
Personally, I'm looking forward to Ozzfest and seeing Marilyn Manson live
again. Doesn't make me any less of a Christian, although I may get
responses to this by self-appointed judges of humanity who will differ.
Jeff Edwards
paranoianospam@sbcglobal.net
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Sure, I can see how a Christian would love to go see the antichrist
superstar perform.......(sarcasm on)
There is a worldview behind every artistic expression. The worldview
behind Marilyn Manson's music is one of nihilism and hatred towards
God.
A Christian should be just as repelled by such a message just as much
as I would repelled by music that sung about hatred towards my wife no
matter how much I may like the style.
Ludwig |
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Ludwig77
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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Jason Steiner <jason@gaydeceiver.com> wrote in message news:<6de6db.jk.ln@shell.gaydeceiver.com>...
| Quote: | Michelle DiCamillo <mich.dicamillo@metroscale.net> wrote:
"Peter T. Chattaway" wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Jason Steiner wrote:
: The lurkers support me in email
: "So why don't they post?" you all cry
: They're scared of your hostile intentions
: they're not as courageous as I.
*shrug* This from the man who kill-filed me around the time I put him in
contact with an atheist friend of mine who thought he was giving atheists
a bad name. Of course, she has no interest in Christian music, so she
never even *reads* this group, much less posts to it. But since she's a
good friend of mine and she's a committed atheist, I used to keep her
posted on Steiner's latest rantings, just to get her feedback.
Ah well, at least Steiner doesn't pretend that *he* has supporters. ;)
Wow, that makes two Christians who don't understand satire.
But we already know that Christians can't think. No news there. What
I'm curious about now is, what it is about Christians that makes them
crave the approval of atheists so much?
jason
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Christians can't think? Have you ever heard of Ravi Zacharias ("Let My
People Think" online at www.rzim.com), C.S. Lewis, Chuck Colson, Ken
Ham, Dr. James Kennedy, John MacArthur, the list goes on and on..... |
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Jeff Edwards
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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"Ludwig77" <gregrjones@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8d273a25.0306250523.24644fda@posting.google.com...
| Quote: |
Personally, I'm looking forward to Ozzfest and seeing Marilyn Manson
live
again. Doesn't make me any less of a Christian, although I may get
responses to this by self-appointed judges of humanity who will differ.
Sure, I can see how a Christian would love to go see the antichrist
superstar perform.......(sarcasm on)
There is a worldview behind every artistic expression. The worldview
behind Marilyn Manson's music is one of nihilism and hatred towards
God.
A Christian should be just as repelled by such a message just as much
as I would repelled by music that sung about hatred towards my wife no
matter how much I may like the style.
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So don't go. Personally, I think you're oversimplifying the message that
Manson is giving in any one particular song. Besides that, I find it
interesting, which doesn't mean I agree with it. My brain allows me to
parse without soaking like a sponge 24/7.
Jeff Edwards
paranoianospam@sbcglobal.net |
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Johnny Brooks
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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"Ludwig77" <gregrjones@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8d273a25.0306250529.3115ed7f@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | "David Bruce Murray" <dmurray1@NOSPAM.rfci.net> wrote in message
news:<qMKcnfo4vZ_0mXyjXTWcow@rfci.net>...
"green as grass" <mail@what.mail> wrote in message
news:BB064912.20265%mail@what.mail...
So... what's your opinion? And do you know any christians who aren't
just
influenced musically by them, but who actually still like to LISTEN to
them?
On one level, it shows a commitment to a new lifestyle when you attempt
to
get rid of all your "worldly influences."
On another level, though, it's a rather naive move. God calls us to be
different from the world, but we still have to live in the world. If a
certain type of music prevents you from living with Christian values,
you
may need to get away from it, sure. However, I think most Christians can
learn how to prioritize their lives to the point that they don't have to
do
something so drastic. God comes first . . . then everything else.
As for the Beattles specifically, I see nothing wrong with appreciating
them
on an artistic level. I wouldn't look to them first for answers on how I
should live my life, though. That's a totally different issue. See, I
believe we should use our own brains to decide stuff like that. Maybe
some
people are just products of their environment and can't help the way
they
think, but I'm the sort who looks at what others have to say and then I
draw
my own conclusions. Sometimes I go with the majority, and sometime I
don't.
David, excellent point. You said the same thing that I said in my
recent post, but you said it much better!
Just as I can have a nonchristian mechanic work on my car without
being influenced by his worldview, I can listen to nonchristian music
and not be influenced by their worldview, provided that I have a firm
understanding of the foundations of my Christian worldview.
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I don't see that a mechanic and a musician are all that related to each
other. Music gets inside of you, for good or for bad. Music in itself is
neutral. It doesn't care what message it is spreading, but it is spreading
some kind of message. I myself do listen to what some Christians call
secular music, but I do screen out what does not fit in with my world view.
Even if I like the style. Just because I like the style doesn't mean I have
to listen to the music. On the other hand I think that it is a bad idea to
introduce a rule or dogma that says you can't listen to music that is anti
Christ in nature. People, especially people using newsgroups, will just want
to listen to it all the more. Ok enough rambling. I still believe the Bible
when it says Evil company will corrupt Good company.
Johnny the Brooks |
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Jason Steiner
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:24 am Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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Ludwig77 <gregrjones@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Jason Steiner <jason@gaydeceiver.com> wrote:
Wow, that makes two Christians who don't understand satire.
But we already know that Christians can't think. No news there.
What I'm curious about now is, what it is about Christians that
makes them crave the approval of atheists so much?
Christians can't think? Have you ever heard of Ravi Zacharias ("Let
My People Think" online at www.rzim.com), C.S. Lewis, Chuck Colson,
Ken Ham, Dr. James Kennedy, John MacArthur, the list goes on and
on.....
|
Yes, it does. There are many frauds and charlatans in the Christian
community, and Christians are so dumb that they actually hold these
people up as examples of the best thinking Christians can do!
Scary thing is, they're nearly right.
jason
--
"Listen, my boy, I can't abide children. I know it's the style nowadays to
make a terrible fuss over you - but I don't go for it. As far as I'm concerned,
they're no good for anything but screaming, torturing people, breaking things,
smDhàng books with jam and tearing the pages." - The Neverending Story |
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Ludwig77
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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Jason Steiner <jason@gaydeceiver.com> wrote in message > >
| Quote: | Christians can't think? Have you ever heard of Ravi Zacharias ("Let
My People Think" online at www.rzim.com), C.S. Lewis, Chuck Colson,
Ken Ham, Dr. James Kennedy, John MacArthur, the list goes on and
on.....
Yes, it does. There are many frauds and charlatans in the Christian
community, and Christians are so dumb that they actually hold these
people up as examples of the best thinking Christians can do!
Scary thing is, they're nearly right.
jason
|
OK Jason, instead of making what appear to be baseless obtuse
statements, how about some specific examples? No name calling, no
broad sweeping generalizations, let's hear some specific examples of
what you are observing as non-thinking Christianity. Please exclude
TBN type of evangelists, for my examples given were not of that type. |
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Jeff Stephens
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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Jason,
On what do you base your definition of agnosticism? Why is your definition
better than any other, such as Ravi Zacharias might choose?
If one chooses to believe that Ravi's definitions are correct, then your
criticism of him makes no sense. Then you appear to be the charlatan
attempting to take a simple set of possibilities and complicating them to
achieve your own ends. Hence the question is begged: why is your
definition better than any other?
"Jason Steiner" <jason@gaydeceiver.com> wrote in message
news:evdfdb.bg7.ln@shell.gaydeceiver.com...
| Quote: | Ludwig77 <gregrjones@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jason Steiner <jason@gaydeceiver.com> wrote in message
Christians can't think? Have you ever heard of Ravi Zacharias ("Let
My People Think" online at www.rzim.com), C.S. Lewis, Chuck Colson,
Ken Ham, Dr. James Kennedy, John MacArthur, the list goes on and
on.....
Yes, it does. There are many frauds and charlatans in the Christian
community, and Christians are so dumb that they actually hold these
people up as examples of the best thinking Christians can do!
Scary thing is, they're nearly right.
OK Jason, instead of making what appear to be baseless obtuse
statements, how about some specific examples? No name calling, no
broad sweeping generalizations, let's hear some specific examples of
what you are observing as non-thinking Christianity.
You already provided them.
You seem rather enamored with this Ravi Zacharias fellow, so I'll
take one example from his page.
http://www.gospelcom.net/rzim/publications/essay_arttext.php?id=3
...in the absence of evidence for God's existence, agnosticism,
not atheism, is the logical presumption. Even if arguments for
God.s existence do not persuade, atheism should not be presumed
because atheism is not neutral; pure agnosticism is. Atheism is
justified only if there is sufficient evidence against God.s
existence.
The author of this statement does not even understand what agnosticism
is! It is not a middle position between atheism and theism.
Agnosticism is an epistemological belief, not a theological belief.
It is a statement not about what we believe, but about what can be
known. An agnostic is one who says, "It is impossible to know".
Agnosticism is orthagonal to (separate from) the issue of belief,
in much the same way that the shape of an object is orthagonal to
its color. Just as an object can be blue and round or blue and square,
a person can be an agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist.
In fact, most Christians are agnostic theists. (In theology this
is called fideism.) They do not believe it is possible to know
for sure that god exists, but they choose to believe anyway. Hence
the need for faith.
This article is a standard Christian attempt to take a moderately
complicated set of philosophical possibilities (agnostic atheist,
agnostic theist, gnostic atheist, gnostic theist) and boil it down
to a simpler set of options (atheist, agnostic, theist), in the
process misrepresenting *all* of the positions, in an attempt to
fool the listener. It is a version of the fallacy of false dichotomy,
except here we have a false trichotomy. (Three options, instead
of 4, and none of those three exactly the same as any one of the 4
real options.)
And it does fool many, many Christians. Because Christians are
easy to fool, and most of them don't know anything about philosophy
that they didn't learn from their church or Christian magazines
and web sites.
jason
--
"Listen, my boy, I can't abide children. I know it's the style nowadays to
make a terrible fuss over you - but I don't go for it. As far as I'm
concerned,
they're no good for anything but screaming, torturing people, breaking
things,
smearing books with jam and tearing the pages." - The Neverending Story |
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mic stand
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Can a christian be a Beatles fan...? |
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Jeff Stephens wrote:
| Quote: | Jason,
Hence the question is begged: why is your
definition better than any other?
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Because his ego is bigger than any other. |
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