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Ol Shy & Bashful
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 Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: 2008 Hunting Season |
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Here we are looking at where we can hunt and how we'll do it. I'm
tuning my bow and arranging for some private property to hunt in
Alabama. Will also check the zero on my #1 gun (Rem700ADL, Brown
Precision Stock, Leupold 2x7, 30/06) shooting the only load I ever use
anymore. A 165gr Nosler, 43 gr 4895. I have used the same gun/load for
hunts all over the USA and Africa and one shot stop/kill. Built this
gun back in the mid-70's.
I seriously doubt any of my shots will exceed 75 yds this year and I
limit my bow shots to 30yds and the rifle shots to 200 yds. Over my 60
years of hunting I'd guess at something like a modest 100 animals
killed in fair game hunts. I've participated in hundreds more as a
professional hunting guide.
What are your plans for this year? Time for some serious and fun
discussions on hunting with your favorite gun or bow.
Best regards to all
Ol S&B |
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Steve Calvin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:24 am Post subject: Re: 2008 Hunting Season |
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Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
| Quote: | Here we are looking at where we can hunt and how we'll do it. I'm
tuning my bow and arranging for some private property to hunt in
Alabama. Will also check the zero on my #1 gun (Rem700ADL, Brown
Precision Stock, Leupold 2x7, 30/06) shooting the only load I ever use
anymore. A 165gr Nosler, 43 gr 4895. I have used the same gun/load for
hunts all over the USA and Africa and one shot stop/kill. Built this
gun back in the mid-70's.
I seriously doubt any of my shots will exceed 75 yds this year and I
limit my bow shots to 30yds and the rifle shots to 200 yds. Over my 60
years of hunting I'd guess at something like a modest 100 animals
killed in fair game hunts. I've participated in hundreds more as a
professional hunting guide.
What are your plans for this year? Time for some serious and fun
discussions on hunting with your favorite gun or bow.
Best regards to all
Ol S&B
|
Well, I had been going to northern Maine (Libby Camps) for a few years
for whitetail but think I'm over that.  Great place, great people
but it's a "been there, done that" kind of thing.
soooo..... Living in NYS, I'll be up in the northern zone in Oct with my
new Savage ML10-II for blackpowder season, 12ga Mossberg with a spec-ops
stock and 2x7 Leupold for the southern zone shotgun season (conversion
pics: http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/15445464 - one
hell-of-a stock, btw) and then back up north (we have property in the
Adirondacks) with my 300 Savage 99E carbine/3x12 Burris for northern
rifle season. (http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/13729650)
I've had the Savage since I was 12 (goin' on 55 now). I refinished the
stock when I was 16 (1970) and it's still perfect today. Yeah, I know, a
blonde stock isn't what you want but I've never heard a deer complain
about it.  And I just couldn't bring myself to hide the grain in the
stock) A lot of people "poo-pah" the gun but I've never had a deer take
a step.
Good luck to all in the up coming season.
--
Steve |
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Bill Lang
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: Re: 2008 Hunting Season |
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On Mon 25 Aug 2008 09:45:02a, Ol Shy & Bashful (selwaykid@YAHOO.COM)
wrote
| Quote: | Here we are looking at where we can hunt and how we'll do it.
|
Last weekend was our last group trip to the camp before the season.
Spent half the day clearing out the logging trails, cutting out the
undergrowth around some old stands, and mowing around the camp. It's
big woods hunting in Nelson VA and the food changes yearly, so we
spent the other half following some tracks, locating some new stands,
and marked a trail for a predawn climb up to spot on a ridge
overlooking a beautiful funnel.
Thanks to disappearing rotator cuffs, I'm done until black powder
season opens. The others will be trying their darndest to find all
the big boys during bow. I finally decided to grow up, put the WBY
..300 in the cabinet, and bought a Marlin 30-30 for this year. I wish
I had done that years ago because I'm really liking this rifle. My
grandfather was right, I should have listened to him.
November is still like 5 years away... |
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Jim and Phyllis
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: Re: 2008 Hunting Season |
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Our bow season starts on Oct 1 in MS. I have rotator cuff damage, so
i will be crossbowing it. Better range is the only consolation for my
arms!
My soy field turned into a weed field this year...so my son and i will
plow it and put in a mixed cold weather food plot.
Season nears!
Jim |
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Chris Barnes
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: 2008 Hunting Season |
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Jim and Phyllis wrote:
| Quote: | Our bow season starts on Oct 1 in MS. I have rotator cuff damage, so
i will be crossbowing it. Better range is the only consolation for my
arms!
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Actually, a crossbow has no further range than a typical bow. In fact,
the range is usually a little less than that of a bow. The reason is
because while the velocity of a crossbow bolt is higher, the weight of
the bolt is less than an arrow. This causes the bolt to decelerate
faster than an arrow.
The benefit of a crossbow is that they have better accuracy (for the
majority of people). My youngest daughter got a "robin hood" on her 3rd
shot using a crossbow (when she was  . It took me 5 years of
practicing before I did that with my bow.
signed - someone else who had rotator cuff surgery (and it ended my bow
hunting "career").
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
chris@txbarnes.com Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes
"Usenet really is all about standing around and hitting the ground
with clubs, on a spot where many years earlier a dead horse lay." |
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Jim and Phyllis
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: 2008 Hunting Season |
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I take your point about weight and range. The bolt is a LOT faster
than my draw weight on a bow permits for an arrow and the crossbow is
vastly more accurate for me at distance (helped by the sights and the
steady hold). I would not shoot a deer beyond 35 yds with a bow.
With the crossbow, I am comfortable and quite accurate at 60 yds. At
that distance, my groupings are 95%+ in the kill zone. Big
difference!
Jim |
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Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:35 am Post subject: Re: 2008 Hunting Season |
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"Jim and Phyllis" <jimandphyllisrp@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e9699497-afb7-4d7e-b423-b982317eee81@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I take your point about weight and range. The bolt is a LOT faster
than my draw weight on a bow permits for an arrow and the crossbow is
vastly more accurate for me at distance (helped by the sights and the
steady hold). I would not shoot a deer beyond 35 yds with a bow.
With the crossbow, I am comfortable and quite accurate at 60 yds. At
that distance, my groupings are 95%+ in the kill zone. Big
difference!
Jim
|
Jim,
The problem is not with accuracy at sixty yards, it's with the kinetic
energy and penetration of the arrow. As Chris pointed out, although
crossbow bolts start out fast, they drop off in speed quickly, much faster
than a conventional arrow. Reduced arrow speed means less penetration.
Less penetration means increased liklihood of a wounded animal.
A good friend of mine has been forced to use a crossbow for archery due to
multiple shoulder surguries. He was excited at first about his new
crossbow, but has since realized that the "effective" distance of his
crossbow is less than my compound bow at long range. He is more accurate
with his scoped crossbow at 50 yards than I am with my bow, with a tighter
arrow group, but my compound bow driven arrow has over twice the penetration
in a foam broadhead target.
--
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
http://www.herefishyfishy.com |
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Marty Carts
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Re: 2008 Hunting Season |
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Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers.com wrote:
| Quote: | "Jim and Phyllis" <jimandphyllisrp@gmail.com> wrote...
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[...]
| Quote: | The problem is not with accuracy at sixty yards, it's with the kinetic
energy and penetration of the arrow. As Chris pointed out, although
crossbow bolts start out fast, they drop off in speed quickly, much
faster than a conventional arrow. Reduced arrow speed means less
penetration. Less penetration means increased liklihood of a wounded
animal.
A good friend of mine has been forced to use a crossbow for archery due
to multiple shoulder surguries. He was excited at first about his new
crossbow, but has since realized that the "effective" distance of his
crossbow is less than my compound bow at long range. He is more
accurate with his scoped crossbow at 50 yards than I am with my bow,
with a tighter arrow group, but my compound bow driven arrow has over
twice the penetration in a foam broadhead target.
|
Dumb question time: I can see the purpose of a
lighter bolt for faster flight at short range,
but why aren't heavier bolts available, in order
to get longer range? _____________________Marty |
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Chris Barnes
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: 2008 Hunting Season |
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Marty Carts wrote:
| Quote: | Dumb question time: I can see the purpose of a
lighter bolt for faster flight at short range,
but why aren't heavier bolts available, in order
to get longer range? _____________________Marty
|
With an arrow, it's all about balance. Balance of the arrow/bolt that is.
Sure, they could make them thicker or out of heavier materials. But
there are "rules" that dictate where the center point of the weight
needs to be (it's been a while, but I know it's well in front of the
center of the arrow/bolt). Otherwise, the arrow/bolt could "turn
around" in flight (eg. hit the deer with the nock rather than the blades).
Plus, to shoot a heavier bolt, you'll need a heavier (longer) crossbow.
Which is exactly the opposite of what most people are wanting
(smaller, lighter).
And then of course, there is the whole thing about "more weight makes
for less initial speed, making for more or a parabola in the flight path
- which means your distance estimation has to be ALOT more accurate".
This is the same argument as using a 125grain bullet from a .257 vs a
220 grain bullet from a .338. Except with an arrow, it's even
more critical (with a gun, you're arguing about "how dead is the deer"
- with a bow you're arguing about "did I hit it at all")
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
chris@txbarnes.com Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes
"Usenet really is all about standing around and hitting the ground
with clubs, on a spot where many years earlier a dead horse lay." |
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Marty Carts
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: Re: 2008 Hunting Season |
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Hi Chris, you around near end of September?
Chris Barnes wrote:
| Quote: | Marty Carts wrote:
Dumb question time: I can see the purpose of a
lighter bolt for faster flight at short range,
but why aren't heavier bolts available, in order
to get longer range? _____________________Marty
With an arrow, it's all about balance. Balance of the arrow/bolt that is.
Sure, they could make them thicker or out of heavier materials. But
there are "rules" that dictate where the center point of the weight
needs to be (it's been a while, but I know it's well in front of the
center of the arrow/bolt). Otherwise, the arrow/bolt could "turn
around" in flight (eg. hit the deer with the nock rather than the blades).
|
Ok, there is that. The analogy would be my son's
model rocket with a max engine spec of "A". By the
end of the session where about 15 boys had launched
their rockets multiple times (i.e. lots of shots,
lessening interest by the boys, so now the dads get
to play some), there were a few more "C" engines left.
Turns out a rocket that flies remarkably straight at
one thrust does really *neat* loop-dee-loops with an
engine several times thrustier.
But wouldn't tuning the bow to launch straight take
care of that? As long as it's FOC (center of mass
being Forward Of Center ("center" being more useful
as an easy to measure rule of thumb than a hard
metrical location) it will either fly straight or
straighten itself out eventually. (I think a better
measure than FOC but harder to figure would be the
tendency for an arrow to right itself, the "strength"
of the vanes)
| Quote: | Plus, to shoot a heavier bolt, you'll need a heavier (longer) crossbow.
Which is exactly the opposite of what most people are wanting (smaller,
lighter).
|
Harumph. The engineer in my bristles at the thought
that the materials can't be easily had to do the
job. Smaller just increases the string and limb
tensions and all.
And besides, I'm not at all sure one would have to
even change anything. I think the same bow would
put actually a little bit more energy into a heavier
bolt. Slower but more energy.
| Quote: | And then of course, there is the whole thing about "more weight makes
for less initial speed, making for more or a parabola in the flight path
- which means your distance estimation has to be ALOT more accurate".
This is the same argument as using a 125grain bullet from a .257 vs a
220 grain bullet from a .338. Except with an arrow, it's even
more critical (with a gun, you're arguing about "how dead is the deer"
- with a bow you're arguing about "did I hit it at all")
|
Yes, I agree with all this. But in the case of
a vertical bow, people like making this decision
themselves, some going for the 125g heads and
heavier shafts, etc.. Seems like a crossbow,
which seemingly *could* have a longer range,
*could* be built to deliver. Maybe it's too
nitch a market to warrant much effort? Might we
expect to see advancement in crossbows when
compounds are all developed-out? ___________Marty |
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Chris Barnes
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: 2008 Hunting Season |
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Marty Carts wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Chris, you around near end of September?
Chris Barnes wrote:
Marty Carts wrote:
Dumb question time: I can see the purpose of a
lighter bolt for faster flight at short range,
but why aren't heavier bolts available, in order
to get longer range? _____________________Marty
With an arrow, it's all about balance. Balance of the arrow/bolt that is.
Sure, they could make them thicker or out of heavier materials. But
there are "rules" that dictate where the center point of the weight
needs to be (it's been a while, but I know it's well in front of the
center of the arrow/bolt). Otherwise, the arrow/bolt could "turn
around" in flight (eg. hit the deer with the nock rather than the blades).
Ok, there is that. The analogy would be my son's
model rocket with a max engine spec of "A". By the
end of the session where about 15 boys had launched
their rockets multiple times (i.e. lots of shots,
lessening interest by the boys, so now the dads get
to play some), there were a few more "C" engines left.
Turns out a rocket that flies remarkably straight at
one thrust does really *neat* loop-dee-loops with an
engine several times thrustier.
But wouldn't tuning the bow to launch straight take
care of that? As long as it's FOC (center of mass
being Forward Of Center ("center" being more useful
as an easy to measure rule of thumb than a hard
metrical location) it will either fly straight or
straighten itself out eventually. (I think a better
measure than FOC but harder to figure would be the
tendency for an arrow to right itself, the "strength"
of the vanes)
Plus, to shoot a heavier bolt, you'll need a heavier (longer) crossbow.
Which is exactly the opposite of what most people are wanting (smaller,
lighter).
Harumph. The engineer in my bristles at the thought
that the materials can't be easily had to do the
job. Smaller just increases the string and limb
tensions and all.
And besides, I'm not at all sure one would have to
even change anything. I think the same bow would
put actually a little bit more energy into a heavier
bolt. Slower but more energy.
|
How far do you think it has to go before it will straighten itself out?
Think like a physicist in ubber slow motion. When the arrow is first
launched, the backend of the arrow is moving faster than the front. The
lighter arrow will bend, keeping the path straighter. The heavier
(stiffer) arrow bends less, forcing that energy into actually moving
either the rear or front of the arrow.
| Quote: | Yes, I agree with all this. But in the case of
a vertical bow, people like making this decision
themselves, some going for the 125g heads and
heavier shafts, etc.. Seems like a crossbow,
which seemingly *could* have a longer range,
*could* be built to deliver. Maybe it's too
nitch a market to warrant much effort? Might we
expect to see advancement in crossbows when
compounds are all developed-out? ___________Marty
|
Being a believer in that "the free market eventually makes everything
perfect" - if it can be done (at a price that pays for the development),
then it will be. :-)
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
chris@txbarnes.com Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes
"Usenet really is all about standing around and hitting the ground
with clubs, on a spot where many years earlier a dead horse lay." |
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