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swingandhustle
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 Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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http://www.salsaandhustle.com/Katie%20at%20Havana%202008/tn_Katie%20at%20Havana%202008%20July%20007.JPG
The photo is Katie and I dancing at Havana Club in Baltimore. And
this is an intentionally rare shot, because nowadays, you're very
unlikely to see anyone Katie's age dancing Hustle in a night club.
But even more unlikely to see it at a commercial dance event or
competition. As most prominent hustle dancers already know, there's
no young people in the room at ANY of our events. This "missing
youth" problem is even the subject of a Headline "Editorial" in Ron's
DanceTalk this week.
See http://www.mjames.org/ronbess.html#thisweeks
The core problem is most probably the prominence of the new slower
dance speed required by the NY style of the Hustle most older folks
do. In the great battle for supremacy, NY style hustle with it's
grapevines, NY walks, Bird like women's arms and ultra slow speeds won
out over the simpler but funner Sling Hustle. Kids voted with their
feet and just refused to learn our 115 BPM (or slower) NY styled
dance. After a few years, we found that no one over 50 seemed to
being doing NY styled Hustle, unless someone was paying them to do it,
or it was a "plan B" to get another trophy after winning West Coast or
Salsa. People who debate this all seem to be over 50, so if you want
the truth, ask the one or two 20 years olds you DO see at the event if
there are lottsa kids in the room, or even doing hustle anywhere.
With their answer, "Are you kidding?" I can rest my case obviously.
But hope appeared in the last week, at our Hustle discussion site FAST
see -
http://groups.google.com/group/fast---federation-of-all-styles-of-hustle
Beth Darchi posted the Soho dancers doing Sling Hustle in NY! We were
pleased but frankly not surprised to see kids doing the same dance my
girls have been doing here for years (Sling Hustle). Kids seem to
love this faster, simpler and funner Hustle style that allows them to
dance to their favorite club tunes w/o difficulty. As we saw at World
Hustle, NY style is effectively useless at 127 BPM, when beginners are
concerned.
See The Soho Utube at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOHxu4hWjp8
I realize this video will ruffle some feathers, and I expect it to be
taken down quickly from YouTube as a result. I also expect a few
viewers to miss some of the points below that tell us this dance isn't
the NY style we all use competitively today. Here's a small list of
the obvious differences that tell us it is Sling Hustle:
1.) The Soho dancer are going 120 BPM! Way faster than NY style
lessons, dances or competitions.
2.) No Grapevines
3.) No NY walks
4.) No bird like women's arms flapping down on &1
5.) No big "back anchor step" on &1
6.) This is all shot at a Salsa event done for young people. Rather
than West Coast for older folks.
In all, they are doing the same dance we always did here in DC prior
to 1995. And they're doing the same dance kids Always loved and could
do what NY style can't, namely get us back to a Hustle style that has
some social utility. So, Sling Hustle can get us back into the
nightclubs, where all the kids are. For those who seem to think this
is just Proto NY style - let me remind you what NY style is, per the
syllabus dedicated to that by none other than the New York native and
the IHDA (Billy Fajaro).
see
https://ihda.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=12772&module_id=4254
Please remember that Sling is an intentionally simpler dance,
precisely because adding a whole lot of moves that can't be done in
the clubs, or for current music kids like - is useless to 20
something's. Let's hope these kids build up a big following, before
someone comes in and ruins the progress by trying to convince them to
evolve their dance to a slower, prettier NY style - for $75 an hour.
"I" like NY style myself, but I also like hard liquor. And I have the
experience and wisdom to realize that some things "I" like aren't best
for our kids. Lets let them have fun with this funner Hustle style
and NOT fix them with OUR version of reality.
Kudos to the Salsa kids at Soho!
David |
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Rahul Dhesi
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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swingandhustle <swingandhustle@gmail.com> writes:
| Quote: | 1.) The Soho dancer are going 120 BPM! Way faster than NY style
lessons, dances or competitions.
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The competitive routine below seems to go at around 120 BPM:
MADjam2007 Pro Strictly Hustle Gary Ulaner & Diane Nardone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1NDxwoxtgs
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/ |
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Rahul Dhesi
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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David Flynn writes:
| Quote: | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOHxu4hWjp8
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None of your listed differences between Sling Hustle and NY Hustle seem
to be very useful (and some are even incorrect). Let's consider them one
by one.
| Quote: | 1.) The Soho dancer are going 120 BPM! Way faster than NY style
lessons, dances or competitions.
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I already posted an example of a hustle competition routine, apparently
in the NY style, at 120 BPM.
| Quote: | 2.) No Grapevines
3.) No NY walks
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True, in your video. But this would distinguish between the two only the
10% of the time that they are doing grapevines or NY walks. What about
the other 90% of the time? You can't distinguish between two styles of
dancing based on a specific pattern that doesn't occur during every
song.
| Quote: | 4.) No [bird-like] women's arms flapping down on &1
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Normally arms going up and "flapping down" together will occur only when
the woman turns with both arms free. I see such turns in the above
video at 0:47 (centered on screen) and 1:34 (somewhat cut off at the
left edge of the screen), and in each case I do see the "flapping down"
arm styling.
| Quote: | 5.) No big "back anchor step" on &1
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Wrong in two ways. First, I see a fairly big anchor step in your posted
video, at the very beginning, at 0:02, and again at 0:20. Most of the
time the camera is cutting off the feet, else we would see many more.
Second, NY Hustle dancers take "big" back anchor steps only when they
first learn hustle. After some learning, the anchor step is used only to
change direction of travel, not to move back. And the faster the music,
the smaller the anchor step becomes. So if you watch slower hustles you
may well see larger backward anchor steps.
| Quote: | 6.) This is all shot at a Salsa event done for young people. Rather
than West Coast for older folks.
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I don't see how this distinguishes Sling Hustle from NY Hustle.
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/ |
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swingandhustle
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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Rahul, glad to hear from you.
Permit me to respond:
First the Utube - it's 120 BPM, and both dancers are seasoned Pros.
But let me just cut and pasted the answer here from my other post -
Evil Kinevil can jump the grand canyon on a motorcycle. That does not
mean that you 16 year old should pull out on the edge of a cliff with
his learners permit and his fathers Honda Gold Wing. Remember what
the problem is. It is NOT getting experts to dance sorta fast for one
song. It is getting beginners to dance faster than that all night.
Regarding your analysis of the differences - again from your Utube:
This video also lacks ANY big back anchors. Despite what you seem to
suggest about the Soho video - no one here in your Utube or in the
Soho Utube is pausing on EACH &1 to style. Also - all of Diane and
Gary's moves at 120 fall within the lexicon of both Sling and earlier
NY style (pre-hustle USA). Kids rejected Post Hustle USA NY style.
That's when it sloooowwwwed down and got too pretty for anyone under
50 to do. For dancers to go even 120 BPM - they have to do what we do,
and dance as we dance. Gone are all those added complications that
arrest the NY style of hustle and limit it's speed to 115 BPM MAX.
Remember - Diane is old school and did the same fast hustle as all the
rest of us back in the day, because she also danced in the clubs. I
doubt that she has forgotten 15 years of dancing that way.
Rahul - the issue is this, retooling the dance to get back to the
clubs and original Disco music. That's not at 120 BPM for the most
part - it's at 128 - 132 according to the record charts and 1980
billboard historical data. So in the end, even if two Pros hide out
in te basement and choreograph a 125 BPM routine - the question isn't
that they COULD do it with enough preparation. The question is Does
it solve our problem. Teaching beginners to dance all night from 128
- 132 is the only target that is "useful" to the kids we don't have
now.
David |
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swingandhustle
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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Rahul, glad to hear from you.
Permit me to respond:
First the Utube - it's 120 BPM, and both dancers are seasoned Pros.
But let me just cut and paste the answer here from my other post -
Evil Kinevil can jump the grand canyon on a motorcycle. That does not
mean that your 16 year old should pull out on the edge of a cliff with
his learners permit and his fathers Honda Gold Wing. Remember what
the problem is. It is NOT getting experts to dance sorta fast for one
song. It is getting beginners to dance faster than that all night.
Regarding your analysis of the differences - again from your Utube:
Your MadJam video also lacks ANY big back anchors. Despite what you
seem to
suggest about the Soho video - no one here in your Utube or in the
Soho Utube is pausing on EACH &1 to style. Also - almost all of Diane
and
Gary's moves at 120 fall within the lexicon of both Sling and earlier
NY style (pre-hustle USA).
Kids rejected Post Hustle USA NY style.
That's when it sloooowwwwed down and got too pretty for anyone under
50 to do. For dancers to go even 120 BPM - they have to do what we do,
and dance as we dance. Gone are all those added complications that
arrest the NY style of hustle and limit it's speed to 115 BPM MAX.
Remember - Diane is old school and did the same fast hustle as all the
rest of us back in the day, because she also danced in the clubs
previously. I
doubt that she has completely forgotten 15 years of her dancing past.
Rahul - the issue is this, retooling the dance to get back to the
clubs and original Disco music. The bar is not at 120 BPM for the
most
part - it's at 128 - 132 BPM according to the record charts and 1980
billboard historical data. So in the end, even if two Pros hide out
in the basement and choreograph a 125 BPM routine - the question isn't
that they COULD do it with enough preparation. The question is Does
it solve our problem. Teaching beginners to dance all night from 128
- 132 is the only target that is "useful" to the kids we don't have
now.
We tested Diane's (and others) students at Wolrd Hustle at 127 BPM,
and found that they had never been trained or even practiced at that
speed - hence - they couldn't do it when required. Gosh - this is
just like triathlon in that regard. If you wanna go fast on race day,
you need to train fast BEFORE race day.
David |
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Rahul Dhesi
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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[ Long, meandering posting from David Flynn ]
David, you posted a link to a 120 BPM video to support your claims of
Sling Hustle danced at 128-132 BPM. Does not compute.
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/ |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:51 am Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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What I see in the SOHO video is beginner level hustle being done at a
moderately fast tempo, period. Can't say that it looks like one style
or another to me, just Hustle. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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On Aug 27, 7:57 pm, c.c.ei...@XReXXKidsX.usenet.us.com (Rahul Dhesi)
wrote:
| Quote: | 1.) The Soho dancer are going 120 BPM! Way faster than NY style
lessons, dances or competitions.
I already posted an example of a hustle competition routine, apparently
in the NY style, at 120 BPM.
|
First off, I'm glad posters have finally pointed us to
videos for use in discussions. Indeed "Sling" style
is what most people do at the ballroom and club venues
I attend.
The Soho dancers have truer lead-follow, with a
continual and "logical" connection, while the MadJam
dancers have semi- lead-follow, with more of a habit-
or pattern- based connection that has some "illogical"
interactions. Also, the routine with "fancy" moves
has no floorcraft considerations.
Hence, it is likely parts of the routine would not work
in a club environment at 120+ bpm, especially with
unfamiliar partners from different regions.
| Quote: | 2.) No Grapevines
3.) No NY walks
True, in your video. But this would distinguish between the two only the
10% of the time that they are doing grapevines or NY walks. What about
the other 90% of the time? You can't distinguish between two styles of
dancing based on a specific pattern that doesn't occur during every
song.
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While "styles" of dancing aren't distinguished by
specific patterns, specific patterns are very
tale-telling about the nature of the dance being done.
Regardless of style naming, the Soho dancers do tight
and "casual" maneuvers, continuously revolving around
each other, with neither dancers ever doing front
breaks. The MadJam dancers do larger and more "showy"
maneuvers with a fair amount of visual connection and
free spins (after 0:45), using more "varied" or
"randomized" footwork. Note that visual connections
are by nature slower and less exact than tactile
connections, and don't work well with beginners.
Many patterns, such as linear walks, require a "change
of mindset" if the flow of the dance is rotational and
revolutional. They may actually detract, rather than
enhance, the dance experience, much like doing Fishtails
in Quickstep while flying down the dance floor disrupts
the flow of movement.
If you notice, at 2:23 in the Soho video, the guy in
the front attempts to lead the gal in green into a
Diva Walk, with the gal looking quite confused. Hence,
I suspect the dancers in this crowd have been exposed
to walks and such, but the experienced leader simply
doesn't bother with them.
Editorial: I personally find Diva Walks one of the
ugliest figures in Hustle, with most couples doing it
like the guy is pushing a wheelbarrow. The figure
looks fine in WCS, probably because of the more playful
nature of that dance.
| Quote: | 4.) No [bird-like] women's arms flapping down on &1
Normally arms going up and "flapping down" together will occur only when
the woman turns with both arms free. I see such turns in the above
video at 0:47 (centered on screen) and 1:34 (somewhat cut off at the
left edge of the screen), and in each case I do see the "flapping down"
arm styling.
|
In the Soho couple, the gal's arms go up just
momentarily, just enough to do the figure. I think
the gratuitous arm flapping being discussed is
exemplified by the MadJam video at 1:56. While
arms are exceedingly important in helping with
turns/spins/balance, many dancers use them
disproportionately. Oftentimes, you'll see leaders
moving very tenuously trying to time the reconnection
to the follower without being whacked because the
follower is flailing arms unnecessarily.
| Quote: | 5.) No big "back anchor step" on &1
Wrong in two ways. First, I see a fairly big anchor step in your posted
video, at the very beginning, at 0:02, and again at 0:20. Most of the
time the camera is cutting off the feet, else we would see many more.
Second, NY Hustle dancers take "big" back anchor steps only when they
first learn hustle. After some learning, the anchor step is used only to
change direction of travel, not to move back. And the faster the music,
the smaller the anchor step becomes. So if you watch slower hustles you
may well see larger backward anchor steps.
|
The steps of the main Soho couple are quite appropriate,
allowing them to dance exceedingly fluidly. Some of the
other couples are not as smooth. It's hard to tell how
proportionate the steps of the MadJam couple are because
the routine and visual "connections" make for oddball
body positions.
| Quote: | 6.) This is all shot at a Salsa event done for young people. Rather
than West Coast for older folks.
I don't see how this distinguishes Sling Hustle from NY Hustle.
|
I can see how this could contribute to the way people
move, because people are apt to develop instincts and
habits. Having danced a fair amount with partners
from both "camps," I can tell that the two groups
move differently, although I'm not convinced the
differences can't be bridged, or that there are
really two distinct styles. In a lot of ways, the
differences "feel" like the difference between pick-up
dancing with "competitive" verses "social" dancers,
the former being more fancy but rigid and the latter
being more basic but flexible. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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On Aug 28, 9:51 pm, audiop...@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | What I see in the SOHO video is beginner level hustle being done at a
moderately fast tempo, period. Can't say that it looks like one style
or another to me, just Hustle.
|
I wouldn't say the main Soho dancers are doing beginner level
stuff. The figures are reasonably basic, with some intricate
arms, but the execution is quite advanced. The dancers are
very fluid and they move "effortlessly," actually dancing with
each other cohesively without that "pre-planned" routine
interaction. Experienced social dancers would probably seek
them out as partners because they dance with ease.
It's not the patterns, it's how you do them. |
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Rahul Dhesi
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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avid_dancer@uymail.com writes:
| Quote: | First off, I'm glad posters have finally pointed us to
videos for use in discussions. Indeed "Sling" style
is what most people do at the ballroom and club venues
I attend.
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Thank-you for your comments.
I wanted to clarify one thing.
I posted the link to the 120 BPM Madjam video of a competitive hustle
routine solely to refute David Flynn's point 1, in which he claimed:
"The Soho dancer are going 120 BPM! Way faster than NY style lessons,
dances or competitions".
I did not intend to use that Madjam video as an example for any of my
other arguments that I made in refuting the rest of David Flynn's
points. Since the Madjam video shows a rehearsed competitive routine, it
will obviously differ greatly from social dancing on a crowded floor.
To meaningfully compare stylistic differences between Sling Hustle and
NY Hustle, you must compare either both done socially or both done
competitively.
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/ |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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On Aug 29, 12:51 am, avid_dan...@uymail.com wrote:
| Quote: | In the Soho couple, the gal's arms go up just
momentarily, just enough to do the figure. I think
the gratuitous arm flapping being discussed is
exemplified by the MadJam video at 1:56. While
arms are exceedingly important in helping with
turns/spins/balance, many dancers use them
disproportionately. Oftentimes, you'll see leaders
moving very tenuously trying to time the reconnection
to the follower without being whacked because the
follower is flailing arms unnecessarily.
|
Observe the MadJam video at 2:05. Is it just me, or
do others also think the follower's arm/elbow could
have given the leader a bloody nose on doing the
Wrap? Too close for comfort, IMHO. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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On Aug 29, 2:49 am, avid_dan...@uymail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Observe the MadJam video at 2:05. Is it just me, or
do others also think the follower's arm/elbow could
have given the leader a bloody nose on doing the
Wrap? Too close for comfort, IMHO.
|
Contrast this to the Wrap at 1:55 of the Soho video.
The leader is smart or experienced enough to face
away so there's no chance of getting a nose job.
The head lean/turn also positions the body so that
the leader provides effortless leverage for the
follower. Not stuff beginners would know. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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On Aug 29, 3:04 am, avid_dan...@uymail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Contrast this to the Wrap at 1:55 of the Soho video.
The leader is smart or experienced enough to face
away so there's no chance of getting a nose job.
The head lean/turn also positions the body so that
the leader provides effortless leverage for the
follower. Not stuff beginners would know.
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It is the understanding of these nuances that allows
moving at even higher tempo, because higher
speed means less room for error or time for correction. |
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Rahul Dhesi
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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avid_dancer@uymail.com writes:
| Quote: | Observe the MadJam video at 2:05. Is it just me, or
do others also think the follower's arm/elbow could
have given the leader a bloody nose on doing the
Wrap? Too close for comfort, IMHO.
Contrast this to the Wrap at 1:55 of the Soho video.
The leader is smart or experienced enough to face
away...
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Apples vs oranges. Choreographed routine containing planned and
controlled clearances vs social dancing.
--
Rahul
http://rahul.rahul.net/ |
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Lusty Wench
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Kids doing Sling Hustle in Soho NY |
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In article <g98553$vsg$1@blue.rahul.net>,
Rahul Dhesi <c.c.eiftj@XReXXKidsX.usenet.us.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Since the Madjam video shows a rehearsed competitive routine...
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Actually, the Madjam video is a "Strictly Hustle" competition, which
is NOT a rehearsed competitive routine. In a "strictly" competition,
you choose your partner and the event plays some random music to
which you dance. Obviously partners will familiarize themselves
with their individual moves in advance, and may rehearse some "tricks"
(although I really saw none to speak of in that video), but the
competition itself is not a rehearsed routine, but lead-follow
dancing.
Lusty |
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